God, Energy and Matter

[Lek]

Very insightful!

[Little lunch]

As far as we know energy cannot be destroyed or created.
Apparently this is a closed system so every thing has to add up.
How do we know it's a closed system?
We can't even see the edges.
Is there anything outside the universe?
If there was, could it take or replace energy from this system?
What would happen if it did?

I'm afraid I have as much faith in science as religion.
Maybe a little bit more. :-)

[Fake Messiah]

"The Cosmos is all there is or ever was or ever will be." as Carl Sagan said (note: it's not the same as universe) some people may call it God but then it is God of agnosticism.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

I'm more of a philosopher than a scientist, but I'm taking what I understand from science and I'm philosophizing.  If energy and matter cannot be  created or destroyed, that means that they share an intrinsic quality with God.  They have always existed with no beginning, and they will continue to exist into infinity.  Those are qualities are also given to God.  Could this match up in any way with a pantheistic understanding of the universe?  If I use science as a basis for my understanding, there couldn't have been an occasion when nothing existed, so energy and matter could not have been created.

If you wish to equate God with the universe, I shan't argue it.  If it makes you happy, I'll even suppose that it is true.

But I don't see how this brand of pantheism gets you to virgin birth, genital mutilation, talking snakes, Resurrection, redemption, eternal punishments, miracles, and all the rest of it.  There doesn't seem to be any logical, reasonable method by which this sort of pantheistic deism evolves into Judaism, Christianity, Islam, or any other religion.

Boru

[brewer]

Hi Lek, haven't seen you in a while.

God is a man made concept only, energy and matter are not a concept, they actually exist. You can't rationally combine the three.

Yeah. I've been on quite a spiritual journey for the last couple years.  So do you think it is possible for energy and matter to be infinitely existent?

Yes.

[BryanS]

I'm more of a philosopher than a scientist, but I'm taking what I understand from science and I'm philosophizing.  If energy and matter cannot be  created or destroyed, that means that they share an intrinsic quality with God.  They have always existed with no beginning, and they will continue to exist into infinity.  Those are qualities are also given to God.  Could this match up in any way with a pantheistic understanding of the universe?  If I use science as a basis for my understanding, there couldn't have been an occasion when nothing existed, so energy and matter could not have been created.

His ideas on this topic have not yet reached a point of consensus, but the late Stephen Hawking argued that spontaneous creation of the universe without the need for any god could one day be explained via quantum theory. Hawking relies on the idea of the existence of a multiverse in which matter and energy spontaneously erupt in endless "big bangs". 

The state of science on this topic can best be described as in a state of conjecture and exploration. So I do not put this idea out there as "the" explanation for how the universe began. I only mention this to point out that there is an interesting possibility that science will one day be able to explain the spontaneous genesis of our universe, but in our version of genesis, there will be no need for god.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

I'm more of a philosopher than a scientist, but I'm taking what I understand from science and I'm philosophizing.  If energy and matter cannot be  created or destroyed, that means that they share an intrinsic quality with God.  They have always existed with no beginning, and they will continue to exist into infinity.  Those are qualities are also given to God.  Could this match up in any way with a pantheistic understanding of the universe?  If I use science as a basis for my understanding, there couldn't have been an occasion when nothing existed, so energy and matter could not have been created.

Another issue occurs:  If energy and matter could not have been created, then there is not only no need for God, God could not have created the universe.

Boru

[Simon Moon]

I'm more of a philosopher than a scientist, but I'm taking what I understand from science and I'm philosophizing.  If energy and matter cannot be  created or destroyed, that means that they share an intrinsic quality with God.

But here's the thing. We know that energy and matter exist. So, our scientific understanding of them is based on something real, tangible, demonstrable, testable, with elegant math that also supports their existence and attributes.

Your god has ZERO of the above. Your god has these 'intrinsic' attributes, because that's the way you define it.

I could define universe creating pixies with the intrinsic properties of not being able to be created or destroyed, and we are in the same position.

They have always existed with no beginning, and they will continue to exist into infinity.  Those are qualities are also given to God.  Could this match up in any way with a pantheistic understanding of the universe?  If I use science as a basis for my understanding, there couldn't have been an occasion when nothing existed, so energy and matter could not have been created.

So, if there was never an occasion when there was nonexistence (does that even make sense?), then what need is there for a god?

[The Grand Nudger]

Match up in any way, sure. Match up in the relevant way, no.

Pantheism asserts (broadly) that those aspects of reality we attribute to gods are properly referent of the universe.

There’s a subtle difference between thinking that Thor was (partially) an explanation for thunder, and being a pantheist, though.

[Lek]

I'm more of a philosopher than a scientist, but I'm taking what I understand from science and I'm philosophizing.  If energy and matter cannot be  created or destroyed, that means that they share an intrinsic quality with God.  They have always existed with no beginning, and they will continue to exist into infinity.  Those are qualities are also given to God.  Could this match up in any way with a pantheistic understanding of the universe?  If I use science as a basis for my understanding, there couldn't have been an occasion when nothing existed, so energy and matter could not have been created.

If you wish to equate God with the universe, I shan't argue it.  If it makes you happy, I'll even suppose that it is true.

But I don't see how this brand of pantheism gets you to virgin birth, genital mutilation, talking snakes, Resurrection, redemption, eternal punishments, miracles, and all the rest of it.  There doesn't seem to be any logical, reasonable method by which this sort of pantheistic deism evolves into Judaism, Christianity, Islam, or any other religion.

Boru

Pantheism is a belief in God, which puts them in the camp with other believers.  Pantheists believe that God became the universe, therefore "creating" the universe.  Therefore they believe in a supernatural existence, which is in common with most other religions.  Not created, never dying energy fits certain qualities given to God.  

Of course, too, science can say that energy can't be created, but they have no idea of what the conditions were before the advent of time.  In other words, science can't make a true determination of whether or not energy can be created or destroyed outside of our closed system.  We can't depend on science for the ultimate truths.  I'm having people in the forum telling me that God isn't real and having only scientific evidence to support their remarks.