God, Energy and Matter

[Anomalocaris]

I get it. You think it's imagination. We don't.

Imagination has a wholesome, innocent ring to it.  What you have is neither wholesome nor innocent,   It is a psycho-social disease, whatever you think it is.

[Abaddon_ire]

I get it. You think it's imagination. We don't.

Imagination has a wholesome, innocent ring to it.  What you have is neither wholesome nor innocent,   It is a psycho-social disease, whatever you think it is.

A little harsh, but also true. Imagination has no explanatory power beyond "I can make it up". It is interesting that the believing cockwombles must claim that atheists have no imagination in defense of their chosen deity. As an atheist, I have plenty of imagination. But I can distinguish between imagination and reality.

[Deesse23]

Yeah.  I know.  You don't believe in divine revelation, personal experience and testimony of others to justify a belief.

Exactly, why should i believe something only others have experienced? Why should i believe some deity is playing favourites and revealed itself only to others? Do you believe other stuff (aside from the existence of a deity) others tell you, just because they tell you? Would you believe muslims that Allah (pbuh) exists because of their divine revelation and personal experience?

As for myself, I just can't stop at the boundaries of natural sciences. 

Neither do i. But i have higher standards than you as far as accepting such extraordinary claims goes. My standards are beyond "what others experienced and attributed to a certain deity, at least thats what they tell me".

When they state the qualities as existing in a "closed system" they're exhibiting their belief in the possibility of another system with different laws.

They? Who? You didnt even bother to tell in your post who "they" is.
But nope, you are wrong. Just because there is a closed system does not mean one accepts that there is another one. The one closed system one perceives, may the only system out there anyway. But please, please dont let such fundamental and simple logic get in the way of believing in the supernatural. By all means, dont let that stop you at the boundaries of natural sciences.

If things exist that don't follow natural laws, you must have different methods of discovering them. 

What methods are you thinking of? Personal experience and diving relevation? How can i apply this *method* myself? Please educate me.
What things that dont follow natural laws are you referring to? I cant think of anything that happened that didnt follow natural laws.

Maybe we're wasting our time in this area of the forum because we're always talking apples and oranges.

Exactly: i like to go beyond mere belief and like to be able to demonstrate to others what i perceive to be true and make that common knowledege, unlike you. You seem entirely happy to live in the bubble of your own self-made version of reality, interestingly (and most probably) only regarding your religious beliefs, because if you would apply your *method* of personal experience and divine revelation to any other area of life you would fail, consistently.

[Rahn127]

They have convinced themselves that this imaginary being is real because they live in a we'll developed country with hospitals, modern medicine, safety standards, good infrastructure, a healthy economy and they have the means to live a good life.

The thing is they don't want to acknowledge the blood and deaths that came before them that helped pave the way for a better standard of living.

Our hospitals weren't always this good. We didn't always have great surgeons and the ability to create vaccines for the masses.

A god didn't make better medical breakthroughs. Science did that. An understanding of germ theory. Lots of trial and error.

Our safety standards got to where they are because people lost arms, lost legs, lost their lives. We changed the way we do things to prevent those kinds of loses from happening again.

A god did not give you a good life. You just happened to be born in a country that has made a better life that what we had a generation ago. And we continue to improve upon our standard of living.

When you start to look at the reality of life, you realize your god had nothing to do with your so called "blessings"

Start thanking the real people who make your life safer, better and allow you to do things that your grandparents couldn't.

[Lek]

I'm as thankful as anyone else for the blessing that science has provided for humankind.  I'm all for striving to produce the accomplishments we have made over time that have improved our lives in so many ways.  I'm no flat earther and put a lot of trust in science for improving our lives and finding facts.  The problem is that we're terribly unhappy and unfulfilled.  In the US, teenagers are committing suicide at increasing rates.  People are using drugs at increasing rates in order to escape this "wonderful" life which those great individuals have provided for us.  Evil and mentally ill people are shooting others just "because".  People are killing themselves working long hours at strenuous jobs just to make more money to buy more things that don't do anything to help resolve that inner yearning for meaning.  And this is all we have?  Peace comes from God and knowing that there is more to existence. We must have God in the equation. Existence isn't complete without the inclusion of the spiritual realm.  It doesn't come from mindlessly following a religion, but rather to opening oneself to God's leading.  The universe isn't here just "because".  The universe exists for a reason.

Now is the moment when you start telling us how you make your own life have meaning.

[Deesse23]

I'm as thankful as anyone else for the blessing that science has provided for humankind.  I'm all for striving to produce the accomplishments we have made over time that have improved our lives in so many ways.  I'm no flat earther and put a lot of trust in science for improving our lives and finding facts.  The problem is that we're terribly unhappy and unfulfilled.  In the US, teenagers are committing suicide at increasing rates.  People are using drugs at increasing rates in order to escape this "wonderful" life which those great individuals have provided for us.  Evil and mentally ill people are shooting others just "because".  People are killing themselves working long hours at strenuous jobs just to make more money to buy more things that don't do anything to help resolve that inner yearning for meaning.  And this is all we have?

I 100% agree with what you said....

Peace comes from God and knowing that there is more to existence.  We must have God in the equation.  Existence isn't complete without the inclusion of the spiritual realm. 

....but this is a complete non-sequitur: "Life sucks, therefore god". Really? Sorry, this is wishful thinking. I dont object to you looking to solve problems with the societies we live in, but "god is the solution" is a very bold claim.

It doesn't come from mindlessly following a religion, but rather to opening oneself to God's leading.  The universe isn't here just "because".  The universe exists for a reason.

Now is the moment when you start telling us how you make your own life have meaning.

Sorry, but this is just more wishful thinking. We dont know how or "why" the universe came into being, and so do you. Stop pretending you knew or that pretending to know is a virtue!

If you think the universe exists for a reason, please demonstrate. Oterwise its a bald faced assertion. Making bald faced assertions wont save any problems!

...and am not even adressing how morally bancrupt most of the (at least abrahamic) religion is. I wouldnt want to live in a society inspired by biblical morality, no matter what kind of flavour.

[Peebothuhlu]

At work.

Might you want to post bullet points as opposed to a wall of text please Lek?

A lot of the above, while it all runs altogether, are actually a whole bunch of very different and complicated issues.

Again, just because you 'Feel' something or assert something does not mean that such actually maps to the realith around us.

Cheers.

[Nay_Sayer]

I'm as thankful as anyone else for the blessing that science has provided for humankind.  I'm all for striving to produce the accomplishments we have made over time that have improved our lives in so many ways.  I'm no flat earther and put a lot of trust in science for improving our lives and finding facts.  The problem is that we're terribly unhappy and unfulfilled.  In the US, teenagers are committing suicide at increasing rates.  People are using drugs at increasing rates in order to escape this "wonderful" life which those great individuals have provided for us.  Evil and mentally ill people are shooting others just "because".  People are killing themselves working long hours at strenuous jobs just to make more money to buy more things that don't do anything to help resolve that inner yearning for meaning.  And this is all we have?  Peace comes from God and knowing that there is more to existence.  We must have God in the equation.  Existence isn't complete without the inclusion of the spiritual realm.  It doesn't come from mindlessly following a religion, but rather to opening oneself to God's leading.  The universe isn't here just "because".  The universe exists for a reason.

Now is the moment when you start telling us how you make your own life have meaning.

I'm as thankful as anyone else for the blessing that science has provided for humankind.  I'm all for striving to produce the accomplishments we have made over time that have improved our lives in so many ways.  I'm no flat earther and put a lot of trust in science for improving our lives and finding facts.  The problem is that we're terribly unhappy and unfulfilled.  In the US, teenagers are committing suicide at increasing rates.  People are using drugs at increasing rates in order to escape this "wonderful" life which those great individuals have provided for us.  Evil and mentally ill people are shooting others just "because".  People are killing themselves working long hours at strenuous jobs just to make more money to buy more things that don't do anything to help resolve that inner yearning for meaning.  And this is all we have?  Peace comes from FSM and knowing that there is more to existence.  We must have FSM in the equation.  Existence isn't complete without the inclusion of the spiritual realm.  It doesn't come from mindlessly following false religions, but rather to opening oneself to FSM's leading and guidance.  The universe isn't here just "because".  The universe exists for a reason and that reason is life in service of his noodleyness

Now is the moment when you start telling us how you make your own life have meaning.

RAmen

[Rahn127]

Lek- "In the US, teenagers are committing suicide at increasing rates. People are using drugs at increasing rates in order to escape this "wonderful" life which those great individuals have provided for us. Evil and mentally ill people are shooting others just "because". People are killing themselves working long hours at strenuous jobs just to make more money to buy more things that don't do anything to help resolve that inner yearning for meaning."

And more than likely all of those people you mentioned are Christians of one flavor or another.

If only they had a god in their lives. Oh but wait, they do.
Everything you mentioned is all part of god's plan. God planned all those suicides. God planned all that drug use.
God planned every mass shooting. It's all for a reason, right ?

God isn't the cure for all these ills. He's the cause, at least he is according to your religion.
Hell, even according to god, if you can believe the things written in the bible.

Isaiah 45:7 King James Version (KJV)
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

[Alan V]

I'm more of a philosopher than a scientist, but I'm taking what I understand from science and I'm philosophizing.  If energy and matter cannot be  created or destroyed, that means that they share an intrinsic quality with God.  They have always existed with no beginning, and they will continue to exist into infinity.  Those are qualities are also given to God.  Could this match up in any way with a pantheistic understanding of the universe?  If I use science as a basis for my understanding, there couldn't have been an occasion when nothing existed, so energy and matter could not have been created.

Unfortunately for this line of thinking, energy and matter do not share other typical attributes of God, like consciousness and willfulness.  The only consciousness and willfulness we know of are properties of biological life.

Nor can a pantheistic concept of God be perfectly good, since we know the world better than that.  A "God" which is not conscious, willful, or perfectly good is certainly not worthy of worship, and therefore can't be the usual theistic God.  So why bother to call the natural world "God" at all?  That just causes confusions.

Perhaps you don't like the idea that you may be heading toward atheism, and are grasping at straws.