God, Energy and Matter

[Rahn127]

You're saying it's pretty much all been said.

But have you listened to any of it ?

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

I would worship in those places, but I would be uncomfortable because of language and cultural differences.  There's a Sikh temple in the city and I've attended a wedding of a friend there, but I don't worship there for the same reasons.  They we're very friendly, but I felt uncomfortable because I don't speak Punjabi and I don't wear a turban and have a foot long beard.

That's fair.

Boru

[Aegon]

How has he impressed it on you? You should know the "whys" and "hows" when it comes to your own beliefs, no?

No. You believe the universe exists, but you don't know the "whys" and "hows". We all believe in stuff that we don't totally understand.

Yeah but I have pretty great reasons for believing the universe exists, such as... being alive? I don't see how you think God's existence is so clear without any additional "whys" and "hows."

[Anomalocaris]

But if AA allows alcoholics to change their predisposition given to them by 'god', then you must also believe that I can do something to change my situation, given to me by 'god', to do something about my predisposition of not being able to believe he exists without demonstrable evidence and reasoned argument.

What can I do about my situation, so I will believe without getting evidence?

Do what the alcoholic does, make a willful decision against that predisposition.  Allow yourself to honestly seek God and be willing to believe what he impresses on you without requiring solid physical evidence.  You have the ability to act against your predisposition.  If you sincerely seek him and he doesn't give you any assurance, then you've done what you can, but as long as you require God to act on your terms, you won't get there.  Sometimes it doesn't happen immediately, but so what?  What is wrong with remaining open to meeting him on his terms?

What I meant was, if 'god' made me with the inability to believe he exists, without evidence and reasoned argument to support his existence, then I have no choice, do I?

If he made me to currently have the inability to believe he exists, but sometime in the future, something happens where I do believe he exists, then isn't that still his doing?

It's not that you don't have the ability to believe, but rather have a predisposition to require physical evidence.  I'm sure that you have gone against that predisposition at times in your life.  You said you were a christian for many years.  God already gave you the ability to act against that predisposition.  So no.  I don't believe God makes us do anything against our free will.

Obviously, 1,000,000's of people die as atheists. If I were to die right now, I would die as an atheist. So, he obviously created some percentage of people to disbelieve he exists.

Like I said earlier, I don't believe we die when the body dies.  I think we live on in whatever form, maybe another human body, until we reach God.  Other forms may be good or bad.

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You've mentioned several times in this thread that there is only one God.  Would you then be as comfortable worshiping in a mosque or a Shinto shrine?  If it's all the same God, does it really make a difference where you worship?

Boru

I would worship in those places, but I would be uncomfortable because of language and cultural differences.  There's a Sikh temple in the city and I've attended a wedding of a friend there, but I don't worship there for the same reasons.  They we're very friendly, but I felt uncomfortable because I don't speak Punjabi and I don't wear a turban and have a foot long beard.

This is the clearest revelations of the vile and disgusting working basis of the typical Christian mind to be posted in this forum in a while.

[Simon Moon]

No.  You believe the universe exists, but you don't know the "whys" and "hows".  We all believe in stuff that we don't totally understand.

Yeah but I have pretty great reasons for believing the universe exists, such as... being alive? I don't see how you think God's existence is so clear without any additional "whys" and "hows."

His "whys" are, because he has 'feelings' that god exists.
His "hows" are, because that's 'how god works'. Yes, he is actually appealing to the 'mysterious ways' argument.

The problem with his epistemology, is people of all religious beliefs, and with other supernatural beliefs, than his own, all claim to have 'feelings' of their beliefs being true. Even when they are mutually exclusive to his beliefs, or to each other.

And his poor attempt to justify their mutually exclusive beliefs, by saying, "they all believe in the same god, they just have the details different", is ridiculous on its face.

And the problem with his "how", like I already stated, is nothing more than the 'mysterious ways' argument. Just because he restates it as, "you have to meet god on his terms", doesn't make it any more rational.

Oh yeah, it is also nothing more than an unsupported assertion, to make the entire thing worse.

He's got horrible epistemology, and he claims we are the ones doing it wrong.

[polymath257]

How do you know that?  You can’t even express how we might be able to determine that in your own case....or how you would.

You don’t seem to be much of a subject matter expert.

If you can’t take the notion that god talks to other people....and even says things that don’t agree with your own beliefs, seriously......

.........why should anyone take your completely equivalent claim seriously?

C'mon.  He stated himself that it was ridiculous in his last post.

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Which god is the real god.  The one that talks to you, or the ones that talk to other people?

There is only one.

Hmmm...even if you think there is only one *real* god, you have to admit there are many *fictitious* gods. And that many people believe those fictitious gods actually exist and that they talk to such.

So, why should I believe you are talking to the real god and not one of the many fictitious ones?  In fact, why should I believe that *any* gods are real? Maybe they are *all* fictitious?

[LastPoet]

Hmmm...even if you think there is only one *real* god, you have to admit there are many *fictitious* gods. And that many people believe those fictitious gods actually exist and that they talk to such.

So, why should I believe you are talking to the real god and not one of the many fictitious ones?  In fact, why should I believe that *any* gods are real? Maybe they are *all* fictitious?

Lets assume for the sake of the argument lek's god does exist, how do we go about determining that his, is the one true god? How do we establish its uniqueness? (Like demonstrating something mathematically, like the old u that for all a in an algebraic group, there is only one u where a + u = a, but religion doesnt have the same formalities).

For the last part, I think someone said that religions can't all be true, but shirley,, they can all be false.

[Simon Moon]

Lets assume for the sake of the argument lek's god does exist, how do we go about determining that his, is the one true god?

For Lek, his determination is, he really, really has the feelsies that his god is the true god.

Oh yeah, also some asserted 'real' supernatural events.

And magically, his god exists. Ta Da!

[LastPoet]

For Lek, his determination is, he really, really has the feelsies that his god is the true god.

Oh yeah, also some asserted 'real' supernatural events.

And magically, his god exists. Ta Da!

Spiritually. I had my share of "spirits" back in the day.

[Lek]

Hmmm...even if you think there is only one *real* god, you have to admit there are many *fictitious* gods. And that many people believe those fictitious gods actually exist and that they talk to such.

So, why should I believe you are talking to the real god and not one of the many fictitious ones?  In fact, why should I believe that *any* gods are real? Maybe they are *all* fictitious?

The only way you'll know is if God reveals it to you. Otherwise you won't know.