God, Energy and Matter

[Simon Moon]

Hmmm...even if you think there is only one *real* god, you have to admit there are many *fictitious* gods. And that many people believe those fictitious gods actually exist and that they talk to such.

So, why should I believe you are talking to the real god and not one of the many fictitious ones?  In fact, why should I believe that *any* gods are real? Maybe they are *all* fictitious?

The only way you'll know is if God reveals it to you.  Otherwise you won't know.

How does one go about telling the difference between god revealing his existence to them, and a sincerely held delusion that god has revealed himself to them?

Has everyone that has ever claimed that a god has revealed his existence to them, actually had a god reveal his presence to them?

Has everyone that has the same theistic beliefs as you, that claims 'God' has revealed his existence to them, actually had 'God' reveal his existence to them?

I'm not saying they were lying, just mistaking or delusional.

If you were talking to 2 people, one who actually had 'God' reveal his existence to them, and one who had a sincerely held delusion that 'God' revealed himself to them, how would YOU go about telling the difference between the 2?

[Lek]

If God truly revealed himself to them, they should know. You and I wouldn't know if their experience was real or not. We might believe it or not. If a thousand people told me, I would be more likely to believe it than if there was just one. We're not discussing some obscure thing, but something the majority of people have believed throughout history. That includes today in the scientific age. Reputable scientists believe it. It's not the same as seeing pink elephants.

[GrandizerII]

If God truly revealed himself to them, they should  know.  You and I wouldn't know if their experience was real or not.  We might believe it or not.  If a thousand people told me,  I would be more likely to believe it than if there was just one.  We're not discussing some obscure thing,  but something the majority of people have  believed throughout history.  That includes today in the scientific age.  Reputable scientists believe it. It's not the same as seeing pink elephants.

IF a thousand people told you. Did these thousand people come to you and tell you straight out they had the same bizarre experience? Odds are high they didn't.

Furthermore, even if there was a common bizarre experience, it does not mean that the Christian God, or any God for that matter, was behind it. There may be a very sound naturalistic explanation for the experience as well.

So when you say "God revealed himself to you", you don't really mean that God physically appeared to you and was made susceptible to your senses, rather what you mean is "I had a bizarre experience I cannot explain, it must be Jesus".

[Lek]

If God truly revealed himself to them, they should  know.  You and I wouldn't know if their experience was real or not.  We might believe it or not.  If a thousand people told me,  I would be more likely to believe it than if there was just one.  We're not discussing some obscure thing,  but something the majority of people have  believed throughout history.  That includes today in the scientific age.  Reputable scientists believe it. It's not the same as seeing pink elephants.

IF a thousand people told you. Did these thousand people come to you and tell you straight out they had the same bizarre experience? Odds are high they didn't.

Furthermore, even if there was a common bizarre experience, it does not mean that the Christian God, or any God for that matter, was behind it. There may be a very sound naturalistic explanation for the experience as well.

So when you say "God revealed himself to you", you don't really mean that God physically appeared to you and was made susceptible to your senses, rather what you mean is "I had a bizarre experience I cannot explain, it must be Jesus".

It wasn't a bizarre experience and I don't think it was Jesus.

[comet]

IF a thousand people told you. Did these thousand people come to you and tell you straight out they had the same bizarre experience? Odds are high they didn't.

Furthermore, even if there was a common bizarre experience, it does not mean that the Christian God, or any God for that matter, was behind it. There may be a very sound naturalistic explanation for the experience as well.

So when you say "God revealed himself to you", you don't really mean that God physically appeared to you and was made susceptible to your senses, rather what you mean is "I had a bizarre experience I cannot explain, it must be Jesus".

It wasn't a bizarre experience and I don't think it was Jesus.

thats it. we are part of a larger more complex system.  And if we are classified as life what do we classify it as?

and no its not a biblegod thing.   Its something, its just not what some theist think it is..

[Simon Moon]

If God truly revealed himself to them, they should  know.

Are you saying, that in the history of humanity, there haven't been a significant percentage of people, that seriously, sincerely, believe god has revealed his existence to them, but were delusional? Even many of them, who claim to 'know', with as much fervor and earnestness as you have?

You and I wouldn't know if their experience was real or not.  We might believe it or not.

Then we might not have warrant to believe them, right? And we might not have warrant to believe your claims either. You just might be, no matter how sincerely you believe, have had some delusional experience. Just like many of those people that have equally strong belief as you have, but were mistaking or delusional.

If a thousand people told me,  I would be more likely to believe it than if there was just one.

Yeah, because 'so many other people also believe the same thing' has worked so well for all those billions of people down through history who believed: the earth is flat, god throws lightning bolts, disease is caused by magical curses, mental disease is caused by demon possession, the earth is the center of the universe, etc, etc, etc.

Remember, 1.5 billion Muslims believe Mohammed flew to heaven on a winged horse. Does the number of people that believe that, add any credibility to the claim?

Your appeal to popularity fallacy is really convincing

We're not discussing some obscure thing,  but something the majority of people have  believed throughout history.  That includes today in the scientific age.  Reputable scientists believe it. It's not the same as seeing pink elephants.

And at one time, believing in the flat earth was a very common thing. Again, how did that work out?

[Rahn127]

Lek, I'm delusional too. Something revealed itself to me and told me...."blah blah blah"

I'm sure your first thought would have been
"That never happened. You're just making it up."

And you think that because you KNOW that as an atheist, I'm probably not delusional. You give me the attribute of having a good head on my shoulders because of my atheism.

If an atheist told you that they sincerely believed some way out there insane crazy shit, more than likely you would tend to not believe them, instead believing that they are saying these outlandish things "to make a point"

You give us this attribute of being a group that thinks critically and is less likely to believe in bullshit.

If that's what you think of us, then how do you view other theists ?

[snowtracks]

I'm more of a philosopher than a scientist, but I'm taking what I understand from science and I'm philosophizing.  If energy and matter cannot be  created or destroyed, that means that they share an intrinsic quality with God.  They have always existed with no beginning, and they will continue to exist into infinity.  Those are qualities are also given to God.  Could this match up in any way with a pantheistic understanding of the universe?  If I use science as a basis for my understanding, there couldn't have been an occasion when nothing existed, so energy and matter could not have been created.

Mind then matter is the preferred choice rather than matter then mind (who thinks that way, anyway)? Are we to believe that elements got together, and suddenly they had thought*. And by the way, what was that first thought ever that was possible even before language to think that thought.

*Perhaps it was a hairless rat that thought 'would be good to have hair' (whatever that is).

[GrandizerII]

Mind then matter is the preferred choice rather than matter then mind (who thinks that way, anyway)?

Preferred by whom?

Many intelligent people think matter then mind (realism). Many other intelligent people think mind then matter (idealism). But also, many other intelligent people think mind AND matter (either dualism or panpsychism).

[polymath257]

Hmmm...even if you think there is only one *real* god, you have to admit there are many *fictitious* gods. And that many people believe those fictitious gods actually exist and that they talk to such.

So, why should I believe you are talking to the real god and not one of the many fictitious ones?  In fact, why should I believe that *any* gods are real? Maybe they are *all* fictitious?

The only way you'll know is if God reveals it to you.  Otherwise you won't know.

OK, so you God revealed himself to you. Others claim God revealed himself to them.

But what you claim about God, given your revelation, and what they claim about God, given their revelation, are different.

That means someone *thinks* that God revealed himself to them and they were *wrong*.

So, why should I believe any of you? Clearly most people who claim to have had revelations from God are wrong. Why should you be any different?

You can't all be right, but you can all be wrong. It is quite likely that ALL the feelings of revelation are illusory.

---

I'm more of a philosopher than a scientist, but I'm taking what I understand from science and I'm philosophizing.  If energy and matter cannot be  created or destroyed, that means that they share an intrinsic quality with God.  They have always existed with no beginning, and they will continue to exist into infinity.  Those are qualities are also given to God.  Could this match up in any way with a pantheistic understanding of the universe?  If I use science as a basis for my understanding, there couldn't have been an occasion when nothing existed, so energy and matter could not have been created.

Mind then matter is the preferred choice rather than matter then mind (who thinks that way, anyway)? Are we to believe that elements got together, and suddenly they had thought*. And by the way, what was that first thought ever that was possible even before language to think that thought.

*Perhaps it was a hairless rat that thought 'would be good to have hair' (whatever that is).

I think it is pretty common (even standard) to have matter--> mind.

A thought is just a certain type of information processing and matter produces information all the time (information is, in essence, the same as entropy).

It is clear to me that many animals have thoughts without language, so your concern about the order between thoughts and language seems to be nonsense.