What do invented saints tell us about Christianity?

[Belacqua]

Well, I don't know. We all get quite skillful in interpreting scripture when we want to prove something we already believed. 

Surely C.S. Lewis knew that you need an airplane to go to another country. Why would he put the entrance in the back of a wardrobe?

---

You understand the difference between God and C.S Lewis, I hope.

Boru

The relevant comparison here would be between the author of John's Apocalypse and the author of the Narnia books. 

(Unless you want to argue that the Apocalypse really was dictated verbatim by God.)

In my opinion, authors who want to get across a spiritual message tend not to emphasize scientific fact. It's likely that the author of Jonah knew you can't live in big fish, for example. Dante knew you couldn't breath above the orbit of the moon.

[The Valkyrie]

Well, I don't know. We all get quite skillful in interpreting scripture when we want to prove something we already believed. 

Surely C.S. Lewis knew that you need an airplane to go to another country. Why would he put the entrance in the back of a wardrobe?

---

You understand the difference between God and C.S Lewis, I hope.

Boru

One existed?

[GrandizerII]

And the idiom 'four corners of the earth' arises from a belief in a flat earth.  But Revelation isn't known for its use idioms.  Seems strange (and kind of ad hoc) to excuse this particular verse as an idiom and nothing else.

Boru

How about the "four corners of the earth" are referring to the cardinal points, corresponding to the commonly characterized directions of the four winds?

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Well, I don't know. We all get quite skillful in interpreting scripture when we want to prove something we already believed. 

Surely C.S. Lewis knew that you need an airplane to go to another country. Why would he put the entrance in the back of a wardrobe?

---

You understand the difference between God and C.S Lewis, I hope.

Boru

Reminder: God wasn't the author of Revelation.

[Jehanne]

One would think that

Well, I don't know. We all get quite skillful in interpreting scripture when we want to prove something we already believed. 

Surely C.S. Lewis knew that you need an airplane to go to another country. Why would he put the entrance in the back of a wardrobe?

---

Clearly, most illerate individuals living at that time believed in a flat Earth

It's not clear to me. How do you determine "most"? 

Is there persuasive evidence, other than scriptural interpretation?

From the Wikipedia link that I posted earlier:

Diodorus of Tarsus, a leading figure in the School of Antioch and mentor of John Chrysostom, may have argued for a flat Earth; however, Diodorus' opinion on the matter is known only from a later criticism.[87] Chrysostom, one of the four Great Church Fathers of the Eastern Church and Archbishop of Constantinople, explicitly espoused the idea, based on scripture, that the Earth floats miraculously on the water beneath the firmament.[88] Athanasius the Great, Church Father and Patriarch of Alexandria, expressed a similar view in Against the Heathen.[89]

Christian Topography (547) by the Alexandrian monk Cosmas Indicopleustes, who had travelled as far as Sri Lanka and the source of the Blue Nile, is now widely considered the most valuable geographical document of the early medieval age, although it received relatively little attention from contemporaries. In it, the author repeatedly expounds the doctrine that the universe consists of only two places, the Earth below the firmament and heaven above it. Carefully drawing on arguments from scripture, he describes the Earth as a rectangle, 400 days' journey long by 200 wide, surrounded by four oceans and enclosed by four massive walls which support the firmament. The spherical Earth theory is contemptuously dismissed as "pagan".[90][91][92]

Severian, Bishop of Gabala (d. 408), wrote that the Earth is flat and the Sun does not pass under it in the night, but "travels through the northern parts as if hidden by a wall".[93] Basil of Caesarea (329–379) argued that the matter was theologically irrelevant.[94]

[Belacqua]

Well, I don't know. We all get quite skillful in interpreting scripture when we want to prove something we already believed. 

Surely C.S. Lewis knew that you need an airplane to go to another country. Why would he put the entrance in the back of a wardrobe?

---

It's not clear to me. How do you determine "most"? 

Is there persuasive evidence, other than scriptural interpretation?

From the Wikipedia link that I posted earlier:

Diodorus of Tarsus, a leading figure in the School of Antioch and mentor of John Chrysostom, may have argued for a flat Earth; however, Diodorus' opinion on the matter is known only from a later criticism.[87] Chrysostom, one of the four Great Church Fathers of the Eastern Church and Archbishop of Constantinople, explicitly espoused the idea, based on scripture, that the Earth floats miraculously on the water beneath the firmament.[88] Athanasius the Great, Church Father and Patriarch of Alexandria, expressed a similar view in Against the Heathen.[89]

Christian Topography (547) by the Alexandrian monk Cosmas Indicopleustes, who had travelled as far as Sri Lanka and the source of the Blue Nile, is now widely considered the most valuable geographical document of the early medieval age, although it received relatively little attention from contemporaries. In it, the author repeatedly expounds the doctrine that the universe consists of only two places, the Earth below the firmament and heaven above it. Carefully drawing on arguments from scripture, he describes the Earth as a rectangle, 400 days' journey long by 200 wide, surrounded by four oceans and enclosed by four massive walls which support the firmament. The spherical Earth theory is contemptuously dismissed as "pagan".[90][91][92]

Severian, Bishop of Gabala (d. 408), wrote that the Earth is flat and the Sun does not pass under it in the night, but "travels through the northern parts as if hidden by a wall".[93] Basil of Caesarea (329–379) argued that the matter was theologically irrelevant.[94]

Thank you. That's more people, and more authoritative, than I would have expected.

[GrandizerII]

From the Wikipedia link that I posted earlier:

Thank you. That's more people, and more authoritative, than I would have expected.

Could be inspired by a literal interpretation of verses like in Revelation. Says nothing about the original intent of the author though.

The thing is, though, that in the OT the Earth cosmology seems to be that of a disc rather than a rectangle. And I'm not aware of contemporary Greek models of Earth implying a rectangular form of a flat earth.

[Belacqua]

Thank you. That's more people, and more authoritative, than I would have expected.

Could be inspired by a literal interpretation of verses like in Revelation. Says nothing about the original intent of the author though.

The thing is, though, that in the OT the Earth cosmology seems to be that of a disc rather than a rectangle. And I'm not aware of contemporary Greek models of Earth implying a rectangular form of a flat earth.

I see that I was speaking too strongly about when the round-earth ideas became widely accepted. This was my mistake, I guess in reaction to false claims that people believed it all the way up to Columbus. It was not as widely accepted as I had thought, in the first four centuries AD or so. So mea culpa!

I think you're right, though, to say that we still can't conclude anything much about the intention of the author of the Revelation of John. Most of his symbolism is adapted from the Old Testament, and if he's using a squared-off version of a flat earth in the midst of all the other symbols, it still makes sense to see it as a literary device. 

There are also aspects I don't know about -- like idioms in use in Greek at the time. If we weren't eager to pounce on each other's expressions, I think we wouldn't be bothered by saying something like "Captain Kirk searched every corner of the galaxy but could never find an alien girl to satisfy him." It wouldn't imply a real galaxy with corners. 

So I think I'll stick with "unknown" for the geographic beliefs of the author of Revelation, and concede that he might have been a flat-earther. But he may well not have cared much, just as Augustine says we should leave it up to the experts. John's Revelation seems to be mostly about the eventual triumph of the church in the face of Imperial opposition, and the shape of the earth is about as relevant there as the outcome of a double slit experiment.

Here is a relevant passage from a different page on Wikipedia:

The myth of the flat Earth is a modern misconception that Earth was believed to be flat rather than spherical by scholars and the educated during the Middle Ages in Europe.[1][2][3]

During the Early Middle Ages, virtually all scholars maintained the spherical viewpoint, which had been first expressed by the Ancient Greeks. From at least the 14th century, belief in a flat Earth among educated Europeans was almost nonexistent, despite fanciful depictions in art, such as the exterior of Hieronymus Bosch's famous triptych The Garden of Earthly Delights, in which a disc-shaped Earth is shown floating inside a transparent sphere.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_flat_Earth

Again, I'm surprised that the belief continued until so late -- Dante clearly describes a spherical earth about 1300, and never got in trouble for it. 

I'm glad that the author mentions Bosch's painting there, because it acknowledges that non-scientifically accurate images can still be used in the arts, and that these weren't intended to deceive. (Bosch was educated.) 

Historian Jeffrey Burton Russell says the flat-Earth error flourished most between 1870 and 1920, and had to do with the ideological setting created by struggles over biological evolution. Russell claims "with extraordinary few exceptions no educated person in the history of Western Civilization from the third century B.C. onward believed that the Earth was flat", and ascribes popularization of the flat-Earth myth to histories by John William Draper, Andrew Dickson White, and Washington Irving.[2][7][8]

[...]

In Inventing the Flat Earth: Columbus and Modern Historians, Jeffrey Russell describes the Flat Earth theory as a fable used to impugn pre-modern civilization and creationism.[7][2][3]

James Hannam wrote:

The myth that people in the Middle Ages thought the Earth is flat appears to date from the 17th century as part of the campaign by Protestants against Catholic teaching. But it gained currency in the 19th century, thanks to inaccurate histories such as John William Draper's History of the Conflict Between Religion and Science (1874) and Andrew Dickson White's A History of the Warfare of Science with Theology in Christendom (1896). Atheists and agnostics championed the conflict thesis for their own purposes, but historical research gradually demonstrated that Draper and White had propagated more fantasy than fact in their efforts to prove that science and religion are locked in eternal conflict.[9]

So at least in part the idea that medieval people were generally flat-earthers can be attributed to an ideological campaign.

[GrandizerII]

What's frustrating is Google hasn't really helped me find what secular scholars have to say about the verse in Revelation with regards to what the author believed about the shape of the Earth.

[LastPoet]

What's frustrating is Google hasn't really helped me find what secular scholars have to say about the verse in Revelation with regards to what the author believed about the shape of the Earth.

Given the times, he could've found some herb, biological, that actually bodes well in the climate of the region. Good for soup. Then, earth can be of any shape.

[The Grand Nudger]

Given a date of 96CE in asia minor, the author of revelation is likely to have imagined the earth the same way that everyone else around him did, flat. The same way we experience it, even today. The reason it was so widespread is that every major cosmology in the region just took for granted, for thousands of years, that this was so. There wasn't much of a reason for people to wonder or imagine otherwise, and there was no penalty or detriment to conceiving of the world as it intuitively appears.

If so much that we use, today, didn't depend on accurate data about things like that, and there were no social cost for such beliefs...there would be more flat earthers than there are.