[Quranic Reflection]: Magic

[Paleophyte]

What Moses -peace be upon him- did is admitted by the Quran not to be "magic".

No, learn to read your book of spells:

( 65 )   They said, "O Moses, either you throw or we will be the first to throw."
( 66 )   He said, "Rather, you throw." And suddenly their ropes and staffs seemed to him from their magic that they were moving [like snakes].
( 67 )   And he sensed within himself apprehension, did Moses.
( 68 )   Allah said, "Fear not. Indeed, it is you who are superior.
( 69 )   And throw what is in your right hand; it will swallow up what they have crafted. What they have crafted is but the trick of a magician, and the magician will not succeed wherever he is."
( 70 )   So the magicians fell down in prostration. They said, "We have believed in the Lord of Aaron and Moses."
( 71 )   [Pharaoh] said, "You believed him before I gave you permission. Indeed, he is your leader who has taught you magic. So I will surely cut off your hands and your feet on opposite sides, and I will crucify you on the trunks of palm trees, and you will surely know which of us is more severe in [giving] punishment and more enduring."

So magicians do tricks but Allah does real magic.

[The Grand Nudger]

Pretty much always the case, no matter who's "allah" we're considering. A shit god with sub-par magical abilities has always been a non starter.

[WinterHold]

What Moses -peace be upon him- did is admitted by the Quran not to be "magic".

No, learn to read your book of spells:

...
( 71 )   [Pharaoh] said, "You believed him before I gave you permission. Indeed, he is your leader who has taught you magic. So I will surely cut off your hands and your feet on opposite sides, and I will crucify you on the trunks of palm trees, and you will surely know which of us is more severe in [giving] punishment and more enduring."

This is the opinion of the Pharaoh, the antagonist of Moses -peace be upon him-. after his magicians failed in the duel, and converted to Moses's religion on spot.

So magicians do tricks but Allah does real magic.

Not at all, Moses's staff was a real snake, it wasn't magical trick.
If you wanted to support the Pharaoh's opinion though be my guest.

[Abaddon_ire]

No, learn to read your book of spells:

This is the opinion of the Pharaoh, the antagonist of Moses -peace be upon him-. after his magicians failed in the duel, and converted to Moses's religion on spot.

So magicians do tricks but Allah does real magic.

Not at all, Moses's staff was a real snake, it wasn't magical trick.
If you wanted to support the Pharaoh's opinion though be my guest.

Amusing that you cite as evidence SOMETHING THAT NEVER HAPPENED.

There was no moses, no exodus exile or any such crap. Any minute now, you will be citing the chariot wheels in the red sea as though it had not been comprehensively dismissed.

Have you any actual evidence? Nothing else matters. So far, nothing. Can you do better?

[WinterHold]

This is the opinion of the Pharaoh, the antagonist of Moses -peace be upon him-. after his magicians failed in the duel, and converted to Moses's religion on spot.


Not at all, Moses's staff was a real snake, it wasn't magical trick.
If you wanted to support the Pharaoh's opinion though be my guest.

Amusing that you cite as evidence SOMETHING THAT NEVER HAPPENED.

There was no moses, no exodus exile or any such crap. Any minute now, you will be citing the chariot wheels in the red sea as though it had not been comprehensively dismissed.

Have you any actual evidence? Nothing else matters. So far, nothing. Can you do better?

My evidence is the universe and the patterns repeating in it, every tiny thing -from atoms- to gigantic objects like "planets" fit together. If a fraction differed; the universe will be no more.

Humans were even capable of using the laws that "glue" the pieces of the universe together, and science was born from observing and understanding these laws.

The laws of physics are obsolete without a heavenly hand implementing them in the first place,
Newton was a theist.
Einestine believed in some form of God; too:

On 24 April 1929, Einstein cabled Rabbi Herbert S. Goldstein in German: "I believe in Spinoza's God, who reveals himself in the harmony of all that exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and the doings of mankind."[24]

[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_and_philosophical_views_of_Albert_Einstein#cite_note-24][/url]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_...rsonal_God

Studying science honestly must lead you to the point where you find the laws of physics "already there" for you to use.

That's my evidence.

[Peebothuhlu]

At work.

I feel I must point out AtlasS33 that the 'Univers' to which you are appealing as 'Evidence' leads to a p!ss poor 'Designer' behind it.

Since pretty much Everything is actually in a state of chaos.

The orbits of the planets?
They purtub each other.
They jostle each other with every revolution.
Over time these nudges can and do drastically change the states of said planets.
Not to mention the extant galaxy at large as entire solar systems cross paths.

Cheers.

[WinterHold]

At work.

I feel I must point out AtlasS33 that the 'Univers' to which you are appealing as 'Evidence' leads to a p!ss poor 'Designer' behind it.

Since pretty much Everything is actually in a state of chaos.

The orbits of the planets?
They purtub each other.
They jostle each other with every revolution.
Over time these nudges can and do drastically change the states of said planets.
Not to mention the extant galaxy at large as entire solar systems cross paths.

Cheers.

It looks chaotic to your eyes and human mind. I mean we are very tiny, but looking at the bigger picture makes us realize how organized everything is.

You can try it with the zooming of a phone camera.

[Peebothuhlu]

It looks chaotic to your eyes and human mind. I mean we are very tiny, but looking at the bigger picture makes us realize how organized everything is.

You can try it with the zooming of a phone camera.

Uhm... no?

It totally IS chaotic.

Heck, they've invented whole types of math to try and work the subtler things out.

Not to mention all the rocks and rubble still floating randomly about the system.

Y'know... the stuff that comes slamming in at orbital speeds and whipe out little things... Like Dinosaurs etc, etc, etc.

All constatnly jostled about by the orbits of the planets and brushes with other solar systems.

[WinterHold]

It looks chaotic to your eyes and human mind. I mean we are very tiny, but looking at the bigger picture makes us realize how organized everything is.

You can try it with the zooming of a phone camera.

Uhm... no?

It totally IS chaotic.

Heck, they've invented whole types of math to try and work the subtler things out.

Not to mention all the rocks and rubble still floating randomly about the system.

Y'know... the stuff that comes slamming in at orbital speeds and whipe out little things... Like Dinosaurs etc, etc, etc.

All constatnly jostled about by the orbits of the planets and brushes with other solar systems.

But science does say that the big picture is indeed organized:

http://cosmos.astro.caltech.edu/page/structure

The universe contains organized structures on all different scales, from small systems like the earth and our solar system, to galaxies that contain trillions of stars, and finally extremely large structures that contain billions of galaxies.  How and why these organized structures formed and how they influence one another is a major focus of modern astrophysics.

Gravity works the same across the Cosmos. It is pretty organized P-T; or else our satellites and spacecrafts won't work.

The more you can see the big picture; the greater your admiration for the design -and also inventive power- would be. Einstein created the atomic bomb for God's sake.

[Abaddon_ire]

Amusing that you cite as evidence SOMETHING THAT NEVER HAPPENED.

There was no moses, no exodus exile or any such crap. Any minute now, you will be citing the chariot wheels in the red sea as though it had not been comprehensively dismissed.

Have you any actual evidence? Nothing else matters. So far, nothing. Can you do better?

My evidence is the universe and the patterns repeating in it, every tiny thing -from atoms- to gigantic objects like "planets" fit together.

No they don't.

If a fraction differed; the universe will be no more.

Then there would be some other universe.

Humans were even capable of using the laws that "glue" the pieces of the universe together, and science was born from observing and understanding these laws.

So what?

The laws of physics are obsolete without a heavenly hand implementing them in the first place,

Wild claim with no evidence.

Newton was a theist.

Newton was an alchemist also. Is alchemy thus true?

Einestine believed in some form of God; too:

False.

On 24 April 1929, Einstein cabled Rabbi Herbert S. Goldstein in German: "I believe in Spinoza's God, who reveals himself in the harmony of all that exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and the doings of mankind."[24]

[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_and_philosophical_views_of_Albert_Einstein#cite_note-24][/url]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_...rsonal_God

Followed by the usual list of quotes.

Studying science honestly must lead you to the point where you find the laws of physics "already there" for you to use.

Because physics is not proscriptive. It is descriptive. Try to understand that.

That's my evidence.

So you have no evidence at all. OK.