Agnosticism IS the most dishonest position

[Mr.wizard]

I did read what you wrote but its a bunch of nonsense, people use logic all the time without thinking about it, its the foundation of rational thought. The law of noncontradiction is a rule of logic that human minds use constantly, "A" cannot be true and not true at the same time, this is basic stuff.

You're still making assertions. You're not responding to the arguments I made. 

It looks as though you don't use logic much at all.

I just gave you a law of logic that human minds use constantly and is one of the foundations of rational thought and you told me I just made a baseless assertion. screw you pal, you either dont understand or you don't want to understand, either way it's your problem.

[Belacqua]

You're still making assertions. You're not responding to the arguments I made. 

It looks as though you don't use logic much at all.

I just gave you a law of logic that human minds use constantly and is one of the foundations of rational thought and you told me I just made a baseless assertion. screw you pal, you either dont understand or you don't want to understand, either way it's your problem.

"human minds use constantly"

I dispute the notion that human minds use logic constantly. As I said earlier, human beings use logic inconsistently. I hold that many people hold beliefs that do not conform to the rules of logic.

People on this forum often say that logic shows the impossibility of the Christian God. An omni-benevolent God which doesn't cure childhood cancer is a logical contradiction, they say. Yet we know many people believe in such a thing.

Do you dispute that Christian beliefs may be illogical? Or do you think that because people are logical animals, they are incapable of holding illogical beliefs? Because people are logical animals, all beliefs they hold are logical? 

If you think that Christian beliefs may be illogical and also held by many people, then you agree with me: human beliefs may not conform to the rules of logic.

[Mr.wizard]

I just gave you a law of logic that human minds use constantly and is one of the foundations of rational thought and you told me I just made a baseless assertion. screw you pal, you either dont understand or you don't want to understand, either way it's your problem.

"human minds use constantly"

I dispute the notion that human minds use logic constantly. As I said earlier, human beings use logic inconsistently. I hold that many people hold beliefs that do not conform to the rules of logic.

People on this forum often say that logic shows the impossibility of the Christian God. An omni-benevolent God which doesn't cure childhood cancer is a logical contradiction, they say. Yet we know many people believe in such a thing.

Do you dispute that Christian beliefs may be illogical? Or do you think that because people are logical animals, they are incapable of holding illogical beliefs? Because people are logical animals, all beliefs they hold are logical? 

If you think that Christian beliefs may be illogical and also held by many people, then you agree with me: human beliefs may not conform to the rules of logic.

Now your just moving the goal posts, I never said people couldn't hold illogical beliefs, you can hold a belief based on emotion. What a person cannot do is believe "A" is true and not true at the same time for the tenth fucking time!!!! Logic is used daily are you really trying to argue that human minds don't use reasoning? How do you think you form thoughts, opinions, classifications, and judgments?

[Belacqua]

 I never said people couldn't hold illogical beliefs, you can hold a belief based on emotion. 

Thank you, we agree on this.

What a person cannot do is believe "A" is true and not true at the same time

How do you know this? Is there a list of illogical things people can believe and illogical things people can't believe? 

I think people can be pretty illogical.

Logic is used daily are you really trying to argue that human minds don't use reasoning? How do you think you form thoughts, opinions, classifications, and judgments?

People use logic and desire and habit and authority and tradition and feelings and many other tools. Reasoning happens in many ways, better and worse.

[Mr.wizard]

 I never said people couldn't hold illogical beliefs, you can hold a belief based on emotion. 

Thank you, we agree on this.

What a person cannot do is believe "A" is true and not true at the same time

How do you know this? Is there a list of illogical things people can believe and illogical things people can't believe? 

I think people can be pretty illogical.

Logic is used daily are you really trying to argue that human minds don't use reasoning? How do you think you form thoughts, opinions, classifications, and judgments?

People use logic and desire and habit and authority and tradition and feelings and many other tools. Reasoning happens in many ways, better and worse.

Dude, I'm done, go bother somebody else, you're annoying me.

[Peebothuhlu]

At work.

Uh.... Bel?

Did you just miss the point... Or are conflating two concepts?

That of "Beliving the sky to be both blue AND pink WITH THE SAME THOUGHT" ?

Along side that of "Some people of a certain age believe in a being called Santa Claus. The definition of which has shown to not match reality."

Sorrg for being garbled... phone posting somewhat limiting.

Cheers.

[Belacqua]

That of "Beliving the sky to be both blue AND pink WITH THE SAME THOUGHT"  ?

That particular example seems unlikely. 

Think of something more subtle or evoking emotion. Like "I am good and lovable, and terrible and disgusting."

"God is omni-benevolent and allows children to die of cancer."

[Peebothuhlu]

At work.

That of "Beliving the sky to be both blue AND pink WITH THE SAME THOUGHT"  ?

That particular example seems unlikely. 

Think of something more subtle or evoking emotion. Like "I am good and lovable, and terrible and disgusting."

Yeah, but my question and point still stand unaswered/addressed.

Do you grok the difference between;

"I believe 'A' AND 'Not A'." at the same time as being slightly........ off?

Along side the;

"A child believes in Santa Clause to which an adult knows there is no such being."

Which is a completely different kettle of eels.

Am quite curious as to your replies.

Cheers.

[Belacqua]

Yeah, but my question and point still stand unaswered/addressed.

Do you grok the difference between;

"I believe 'A' AND 'Not A'." at the same time as being slightly........ off?

It seems clear to me that people can believe contradictory things, simultaneously.

Along side the;

"A child believes in Santa Clause to which an adult knows there is no such being."

Which is a completely different kettle of eels. 

Am quite curious as to your replies.

Cheers.

I don't understand the question, I guess.

Of course kids and adults may believe different things. Atheists and Christians believe different things. I don't see how this is on topic here....?

[Peebothuhlu]

At work.

Yeah, but my question and point still stand unaswered/addressed.

Do you grok the difference between;

"I believe 'A' AND 'Not A'." at the same time as being slightly........ off?

It seems clear to me that people can believe contradictory things, simultaneously.

Along side the;

"A child believes in Santa Clause to which an adult knows there is no such being."

Which is a completely different kettle of eels. 

Am quite curious as to your replies.

Cheers.

I don't understand the question, I guess.

Of course kids and adults may believe different things. Atheists and Christians believe different things. I don't see how this is on topic here....?

So..... you don't grok the difference between;

Some one believing something to be 'True' (As in their mental idea matches reality) when, in fact, they ate wrong/mistaken.

Which is different to;

Some one believing a colour is both black AND white at the same time.

(If folks can give a better example of 'A' and 'Not A', that'd be great)


Y'see the difference between the two statements Bel?

Cheers.