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Current time: March 28, 2024, 12:00 pm

Poll: Labor Unions - are you for or against it and why?
This poll is closed.
I support it
90.32%
28 90.32%
I oppose it
9.68%
3 9.68%
Total 31 vote(s) 100%
* You voted for this item. [Show Results]

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Labor Unions - are you for or against it and why?
#31
RE: Labor Unions - are you for or against it and why?
Quote:What does that translate to with inflation taken into account?

About $1 an hour.


Quote:That's rotten, no employer should be allowed to prevent you from joining a union if that's what you want to do.


Common practice,then and now,especially with kids,who tend to be naive. Fast food chains have a vile reputation in this country for exploiting their largely young workforce.


Quote:Did you have much success in negotiating?

Not in the early days ,but our success rate went through the roof once we started going on strike in 1984. Strikes would not have happened if our employer had negotiated in good faith.


Quote:The pragmatic part isn't necessarily true,


I made no truth claims


Quote:but I've got nothing against unions in principle.

Yet you seem to have a problem with the basic concept of unionism; a fair day's pay for a fair day's work. IE dictating how much the employer will pay? It is accepted that the owner of the means of production has a right to a fair return.BUT he does not have the right to exploit of his workers.

Quote:Slaves? No. Cheap labour? Yes.

Semantics.Marx( I think) coined the term 'wage slaves'. Only last week I also heard the phrase "debt is a form of slavery".

Working as long as one can and as hard as one can,yet not earning enough to live in even modest comfort is a form of slavery.Marx recognised the innate injustices and immorality of capitalism long before he and Engels wrote "Capital"

Void,we have an ideological difference which I doubt we can resolve. I'm happy to agree to differ.
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#32
RE: Labor Unions - are you for or against it and why?
While I oppose the thuggish tactics used by some of our public unions, (as seen in Wisconsin and in Ohio), I also oppose the intimidation and bully tactics that are used by company managers against their employees. I support collective bargaining as a means for employees to improve their working conditions, to negotiate better salaries, better benefits packages, to negotiate policy changes, hours, job stability, and to protect themselves from abusive managers.
Union organizing is also federal protected activity. Workers have the right to discuss joining a union. Workers have the right to distribute union literature during their breaks on company property, (but not in the working area on company time). Workers have the right to wear union buttons, shirts, hats, stickers to show their support for a union. Workers have the right to sign union cards and demand union recognition. Workers have the right to join together in activities to protest unfair treatment and demand improvements in their wages, hours and working conditions. Workers have the right to organize employees to form a union. see section 7 of the National Labor Relations Act
It is illegal for your boss to fire you or threaten to fire, layoff, discipline, harrass, or transfer an employee for supporting a union. It is illegal for your boss to favor employees who do not support a union. It is illegal for your boss to close the place where you work, take away benefits and other privileges to discourage union activity. It is illegal for your boss to question workers about unions.
http://www.nlrb.gov/rights-we-protect/employee-rights, http://www.nlrb.gov/rights-we-protect/em...bligations.

"Inside every Liberal there's a Totalitarian screaming to get out"

[Image: freddy_03.jpg]

Quote: JohnDG...
Quote:It was an awful mistake to characterize based upon religion. I should not judge any theist that way, I must remember what I said in order to change.
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#33
RE: Labor Unions - are you for or against it and why?
Void, I absolutely understand your position on things like minimum wages, etc. It is completely one-sided, and infringes upon the employer. However. If we wish to avoid infringing upon him in this manner, if we really want to abolish things like minimum wage, then we need to accept responsibility for the effects of that action. You can't hand wave it away and say that the market would correct itself, and the prices of goods would fall. There have always been those among us who have been exploited. Relaxing legislation against the exploitative party has never......never, made them stop exploiting people. They simply shift their operations.

We have a right to operate a business, yes. But only within the confines of the law. We have progressively refined these laws over time in an attempt to deal with situations as they arose. In what way would eliminating our ability to continue this discussion (with the authority of government as support) improve our collective lot in life. In what way would this safeguard your individual liberties? Why are the examples of laws or authority over business that you support not infringements upon business, or infringements upon individual rights?

Can you give me an example of any law which does not infringe upon someones individual liberty?

(Libertarianism must be a different beast in other countries, sometimes I get the feeling that we're not even talking about the same platform when we discuss issues like these)
-Scratch this whole line of questioning, read a ton of your posts, definitely a different beast.-
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#34
RE: Labor Unions - are you for or against it and why?
I must have gone away when this thread started. Obviously I am pro-union.
All of the benefits the worker anywhere in the world has managed to win has been through struggle and through acting collectively and not as a result of largesse on the part of the employer.
Unions, Strong Unions are vital to stop exploitation of the workforce.
It amazes me that any worker would choose not to be part of the Union, if only for the selfish reason of protection and support if the employer wrongs him/her. I support the idea of the " closed shop " where a Union has sole representation rights at a business. ( for those that don't know, this means you MUST be in the Union to work there ). I resent " freeloaders " who will not join the Union, not take industrial action when agreed and yet are happy to take any gains made by their fellow workers acting in unity.
" Workers of the world unite! " as Marx so inspiringly put it.
HuhA man is born to a virgin mother, lives, dies, comes alive again and then disappears into the clouds to become his Dad. How likely is that?
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#35
RE: Labor Unions - are you for or against it and why?
Looks like me and BOZO are going to be good friends.
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#36
RE: Labor Unions - are you for or against it and why?
(August 4, 2011 at 3:01 pm)bozo Wrote: I must have gone away when this thread started. Obviously I am pro-union.
All of the benefits the worker anywhere in the world has managed to win has been through struggle and through acting collectively and not as a result of largesse on the part of the employer.
Unions, Strong Unions are vital to stop exploitation of the workforce.
It amazes me that any worker would choose not to be part of the Union, if only for the selfish reason of protection and support if the employer wrongs him/her. I support the idea of the " closed shop " where a Union has sole representation rights at a business. ( for those that don't know, this means you MUST be in the Union to work there ). I resent " freeloaders " who will not join the Union, not take industrial action when agreed and yet are happy to take any gains made by their fellow workers acting in unity.
" Workers of the world unite! " as Marx so inspiringly put it.
Quote: I resent " freeloaders " who will not join the Union, not take industrial action when agreed and yet are happy to take any gains made by their fellow workers acting in unity.
Indeed. Not only that, but they're also the same ones who will assist company management in illegal activity to discourage the union organizing process... and as you stated, they'll happily share in the gains made by those who struggled for the union effort. I am a proud supporter of the AFL-CIO / RWDSU.

"Inside every Liberal there's a Totalitarian screaming to get out"

[Image: freddy_03.jpg]

Quote: JohnDG...
Quote:It was an awful mistake to characterize based upon religion. I should not judge any theist that way, I must remember what I said in order to change.
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#37
RE: Labor Unions - are you for or against it and why?
(August 4, 2011 at 4:47 pm)reverendjeremiah Wrote: Looks like me and BOZO are going to be good friends.

Good friends are always to be treasured!
(August 4, 2011 at 5:08 pm)A Theist Wrote:
(August 4, 2011 at 3:01 pm)bozo Wrote: I must have gone away when this thread started. Obviously I am pro-union.
All of the benefits the worker anywhere in the world has managed to win has been through struggle and through acting collectively and not as a result of largesse on the part of the employer.
Unions, Strong Unions are vital to stop exploitation of the workforce.
It amazes me that any worker would choose not to be part of the Union, if only for the selfish reason of protection and support if the employer wrongs him/her. I support the idea of the " closed shop " where a Union has sole representation rights at a business. ( for those that don't know, this means you MUST be in the Union to work there ). I resent " freeloaders " who will not join the Union, not take industrial action when agreed and yet are happy to take any gains made by their fellow workers acting in unity.
" Workers of the world unite! " as Marx so inspiringly put it.
Quote: I resent " freeloaders " who will not join the Union, not take industrial action when agreed and yet are happy to take any gains made by their fellow workers acting in unity.
Indeed. Not only that, but they're also the same ones who will assist company management in illegal activity to discourage the union organizing process... and as you stated, they'll happily share in the gains made by those who struggled for the union effort. I am a proud supporter of the AFL-CIO / RWDSU.

We are as one on this then!
HuhA man is born to a virgin mother, lives, dies, comes alive again and then disappears into the clouds to become his Dad. How likely is that?
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#38
RE: Labor Unions - are you for or against it and why?
(August 4, 2011 at 3:01 pm)bozo Wrote: I must have gone away when this thread started. Obviously I am pro-union.
All of the benefits the worker anywhere in the world has managed to win has been through struggle and through acting collectively and not as a result of largesse on the part of the employer.
Unions, Strong Unions are vital to stop exploitation of the workforce.

The workforce isn't being exploited, despite your assertions. Exploitation is defined as "The act of using something in an unjust or cruel manner" giving a person a wage they agree to work for under conditions they were informed of is not exploitation, it's the businesses who will break contracts, force labor and lie about the conditions that can be said to be exploitative - all such actions involve the use of force, fraud or coercion and thus the government has a legitimate moral authority to intervene.

And the benefits of unions isn't anywhere near the fantasy story you portray, we scrapped compulsory union membership in the 70s and wages have been rising faster... Clearly not a case of your bald-faced assertion that "All of the benefits the worker anywhere in the world has managed to win has been through struggle and through acting collectively and not as a result of largesse on the part of the employer."

If people think they will benefit from union membership then I would encourage them to do so, I support their freedom of association completely and will stand up for them if any politician or employer thinks they have the right to fire people for joining a union, but I will likewise stand up for people who don't want to join a union but are forced to, or an employer who is told that they cannot freely negotiate with another consenting adult who has not agreed to the conditions of a third party.

Quote:It amazes me that any worker would choose not to be part of the Union,

It shouldn't. Paying a percent of your wages to a union might pay off long-term but for people who have no desire to be in an industry long term paying membership fees and a percent of wages will likely result in them walking away with less money.

Quote:if only for the selfish reason of protection and support if the employer wrongs him/her.

There is no need for a union there, any wrongdoing falls under the jurisdiction of the government and compensation can be sought in a tribunal.

Quote:I support the idea of the " closed shop " where a Union has sole representation rights at a business.

Yep, you're a complete authoritarian! Suppose you run the country and I don't want to join the union, I can get fucked, right? Even if I could otherwise negotiate with the employer for a better than average wage I have to sit down, shut up and let the union monopoly decide what I can work for, right? Even if I am only taking the job for a shot term and I will never receive value greater than the fees, right? Would you even support competition amongst unions? That way unions can compete over the fees they charge, giving employers who are willing to join a better deal.

Your compulsion would squash my freedoms, telling me that I MUST join an organisation, I MUST pay them a percent of my wages, I MUST work for what they decide and I have no say in the matter.

I am against any restrictions on the freedom of association, that includes an employer telling me that I MUST NOT join a union also any union telling me than I CAN NOT work unless I agree to their conditions. Nobody has ANY moral authority to force people to associate with any organisation, nor to tell them that they may not associate.

Quote:I resent " freeloaders " who will not join the Union, not take industrial action when agreed and yet are happy to take any gains made by their fellow workers acting in unity.

Except that's a fantasy, no employer has to apply union negotiations to non-union workers, if they chose to do so anyway that's their decision and thus none of your business.

Quote:" Workers of the world unite! " as Marx so inspiringly put it.

More like "Workers of the world unite or get fucked!", it should be "Workers of the world unite if that is what you wish to do!".
.
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#39
RE: Labor Unions - are you for or against it and why?
(August 4, 2011 at 7:17 pm)bozo Wrote: We are as one on this then!
Indeed we are! Unions are the counter balance to abusive employers. I've read Void's responses and I fully understand where he's coming from, but I hope he understands our position as well. The whole purpose of the union is not tear down the employers we work for. We're just taking responsibility over our working conditions, to improve our salaries, the hours we work, our benefits packages, to have a voice in policy, job stability,...this is also a democratic process as it takes a majority of workers to vote in a union. Dues for the union I that belong to are only two hours of pay per month, a small investment for the gains we received because of the union. It's our federally protected legal right to improve our working conditions by organizing a union.
"Inside every Liberal there's a Totalitarian screaming to get out"

[Image: freddy_03.jpg]

Quote: JohnDG...
Quote:It was an awful mistake to characterize based upon religion. I should not judge any theist that way, I must remember what I said in order to change.
Reply
#40
RE: Labor Unions - are you for or against it and why?
If we got rid of labor unions people would eventually create them again... they technically have been around forever in one form or another so no labor unions is almost impossible to happen... people will always organize and fight for what they want whether you like it or not.
Quote:"An individual has not started living until he can rise above the narrow confines of his individualistic concerns to the broader concerns of all humanity. "
Martin Luther King, Jr.
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