That Gay Thread

[The Architect Of Fate]

It's not my definition. It's one of the dictionaries definitions, which some doctors, biologists, professors, etc choose to use. I accept that that is a woman. But's they're also a biological male, and that can't be changed. They are both a woman and male at the same time. Some are referring to gender when they say man. Some are referring to sex. I want them to feel comfortable and if they feel they have more of a feminine brain, that's good enough for me to consider them a woman, but who the hell am I to force my language on a doctor or a biologist?

Irrelevant referring to a trans as a man when they are not is bigotry and yes if they refer to a trans person as a man we have the right to correct them because they are wrong.

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No one had to force doctors or biologists to accept that gender is a social construct.  They're the ones trying to tell your thick ass that very thing.  They're the ones trying to tell you that your proscribed course of action is the problem.  They're the ones telling you that you believe in myths about children and gender.

Truth

[Irreligious Atheist]

I looked up man and one of the definitions is an adult male human. Male is a sex. I don't think biologists and doctors are being ignorant bigots by using different language than we choose to use when we say that men can get pregnant.

Any definition of gender that excludes trans identities is bigotry full stop.

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If you call this person man you're a bigot end of story and you will rightly be ridiculed for it. Because this is a women's end of story. You don't get to use your definition to define her because your definition is wrong. It's not semantic. THIS IS A WOMEN!

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You've swallowed another load of horseshit from the usual suspects, man.  I think that you should man up and stop that.

Remember this is the same person who bought the white replacement theory

Yeah, I fell for the idea that whites are going to be a minority, as did the NY Times, PBS, NBC, USA Today, the Boston Globe, the Guardian, Axios, Business Insider, the Baltimore Sun, CNN, CBS, Bloomberg, Reuters, Huffpost, Slate, when they all have reported that. You can see that just from a quick google search. Didn't you tell me before that I should have no reason to fear that MSM would lie to me?

[The Architect Of Fate]

Yeah, I fell for the idea that whites are going to be a minority, as did the NY Times, PBS, NBC, USA Today, the Boston Globe, the Guardian, Axios, Business Insider, the Baltimore Sun, CNN, CBS, Bloomberg, Reuters, Huffpost, Slate, when they all have reported that. You can see that just from a quick google search. Didn't you tell me before that I should have no reason to fear that MSM would lie to me?

Your failure is not lessened by pointing to other people's failure and no I didn't tell you that.

[Irreligious Atheist]

If you have a young boy who identifies more with female things or female dress, this should be discouraged as well, and hopefully they grow out of it. No one should want their child to be transgender, given the suicide rate and all the problems they will face in life. You try to point them in another direction, but if the trans thing sticks long term, then you accept it and love them how they are. You still gotta try to put them in the best position to succeed in life though.

No, discouraging this is a bad idea. If you at the very least, tolerate it, they can feel free to explore it, and they can then decide for themselves how they want to express gender. They might become trans, they might just lose interest in female things in the same way they lose interest in building sand castles, or they might just decide they're a guy who just likes to wear women's clothing sometimes. You discourage it, there's a good chance he won't stop. He just won't do it in front of you, and if it turns out the kid does become trans, the fact that she has to pretend to be a he for you just makes it worse for them.

You mention that there's a huge suicide rate among transfolk. That is true. The thing is, literally every study done into the issue says that this is because of social factors, namely discrimination. And one of the biggest factors, one stated in big orange letters in one of the studies I linked before:
"Respondents who experienced family rejection were also more likely to report attempting suicide."  

And it's not just disowning then once they come out. It can also come from the sort of discouragement you mentioned. Suppose you had a son named Glen. Then imagine that you see him trying on one of his mother's dresses. You tell him in no uncertain terms he shouldn't do that. Now imagine that he explores these interests in private, and eventually it reaches the point where your son Glen realises he should have been your daughter Glenda.  Glenda knows what you thought of her wearing her mother's dresses. She knows you'd rather see her as a boy. She starts to feel imprisoned in this "Glen" identity that doesn't feel real to her. As far as she knows, there's a good chance that if she comes out, at the very least, her relationship with you will be strained and there's a distinct possibility that you'll disown her. If that happens, she'll probably end up on the streets. And then, she starts to decide that the best thing would be to end it all. You may say that you'd support her if she comes out as trans, but if all you do before then is discourage it, there's no reason for her to believe that.

And another thing that pretty much all studies of transgender suicide rates note: The one thing that's guaranteed to decrease suicidality in transgender people is accepting their chosen gender identity. All that shit you've described as an political correctness gone mad in previous posts is the sort of thing that helps make them less suicidal. If you actually gave a shit about trans suicide, affirming their chosen gender is the sort of thing you'd need to do to lower it.

And on the off chance that anyone here thinks trans people are just mentally ill and that, with therapy, they can just get over it, I have to ask: if that actually worked, don't you think that they'd actually be doing that? \

You can discourage it while they're super young, but still at some point make it known to your child that you support trans identities and just don't think people that young should be making that decision. Then when they're a bit older, they shouldn't feel too uncomfortable coming to you and talking about it because you've already let it be known that you're accepting of those kinds of people. Maybe you're right and in some cases it could backfire. I don't know.

[Silver]

It is entirely semantics. I've heard biologists say that men can't get pregnant. Are they being anti-science? No. They are not actually disagreeing with you or I when they say that. They are defining man differently, and that's fine. Man can be defined in more than one way.

Some women can't get pregnant either. Your point?

[The Architect Of Fate]

You can discourage it while they're super young,

And you shouldn't do this as it is harmful 

 but still at some point make it known to your child that you support trans identities and just don't think people that young should be making that decision.

You should do it right from the beginning and not doing it is harmful and yes they can and should be able to make that decision 

 Then when they're a bit older,

Nope when they are young 

 they shouldn't feel too uncomfortable coming to you and talking about it because you've already let it be known that you're accepting of those kinds of people.

But they will 

 Maybe you're right and in some cases, it could backfire. I don't know.

It WILL backfire

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Pretty much every Argument IA is using in terms of Trans people and youth are debunked in the following video series. (this video is the most relevant and (Claim 1 and Claim 2) are the most relevant chapters.

[Irreligious Atheist]

It is entirely semantics. I've heard biologists say that men can't get pregnant. Are they being anti-science? No. They are not actually disagreeing with you or I when they say that. They are defining man differently, and that's fine. Man can be defined in more than one way.

Some women can't get pregnant either. Your point?

What do you mean either? That seems to imply that you agree that men can't get pregnant.

I personally think men can get pregnant, have periods and all that fun stuff. My point was that a doctor or a biologist should not be forced to use language when they disagree with that language. It's not hateful to disagree on language.

[The Architect Of Fate]

What do you mean either? That seems to imply that you agree that men can't get pregnant.

Just what they said some CIS woman can't get pregnant this doesn't make them less woman 

I personally think men can get pregnant, have periods and all that fun stuff. My point was that a doctor or a biologist should not be forced to use language when they disagree with that language. It's not hateful to disagree on language.

Yes they should when referring to trans people because they are who they identify as and they don't get to deny this.

[Silver]

Last Call: behind the terrifying untold story of New York's gay bar killer

On 10 July 1992, a grisly stash of body parts was found in trash bags by a rest stop on the Garden State Parkway in New Jersey. The parts had been cut so cleanly that barely any blood could be found amid the sinew and bone. Over the next few years, similar scenes of horror would emerge in the region, leaving scores of clues about the character of the victims as well as the origin and method of their deaths.

If this story had traced the common arc of serial killings, a wave of fear would have rippled through the communities most likely to suffer the next victim. But it didn’t happen that way. In fact, the people who were most at risk – in this case, gay men who met for hook-ups at New York City bars that served the community – were given no sustained or amplified warnings by either the authorities or the media, creating a safe space for the murderer to continue to wreak havoc. In fact, the case got so little attention relative to its horror that today few remember it, even within the gay community.

Now, three decades after the murders, journalist Elon Green has written a book titled Last Call: A True Story of Love, Lust, and Murder in Queer New York that goes beyond the facts of the story to reveal the larger issues that surrounded them. “It’s important for people to see how anti-queer bigotry manifested itself in this case,” he said to the Guardian. “They need to understand the stakes, not just for the victims but for the men who simply went to these bars during that period. There are systemic issues here.”

While LGBTQ people may still be at considerably elevated risk for violence, the level of peril and contempt was far higher in the late 80s and early 90s, when the bulk of the book takes place. Worse, that period represented the height of ignorance and fear about Aids, as well as the peak death toll in the gay community in the west, greatly impacting how the community was viewed. “Aids took what was, at best, a level of indifference towards gay people and turned it into revulsion,” said Green.

[Angrboda]

No, discouraging this is a bad idea. If you at the very least, tolerate it, they can feel free to explore it, and they can then decide for themselves how they want to express gender. They might become trans, they might just lose interest in female things in the same way they lose interest in building sand castles, or they might just decide they're a guy who just likes to wear women's clothing sometimes. You discourage it, there's a good chance he won't stop. He just won't do it in front of you, and if it turns out the kid does become trans, the fact that she has to pretend to be a he for you just makes it worse for them.

You mention that there's a huge suicide rate among transfolk. That is true. The thing is, literally every study done into the issue says that this is because of social factors, namely discrimination. And one of the biggest factors, one stated in big orange letters in one of the studies I linked before:
"Respondents who experienced family rejection were also more likely to report attempting suicide."  

And it's not just disowning then once they come out. It can also come from the sort of discouragement you mentioned. Suppose you had a son named Glen. Then imagine that you see him trying on one of his mother's dresses. You tell him in no uncertain terms he shouldn't do that. Now imagine that he explores these interests in private, and eventually it reaches the point where your son Glen realises he should have been your daughter Glenda.  Glenda knows what you thought of her wearing her mother's dresses. She knows you'd rather see her as a boy. She starts to feel imprisoned in this "Glen" identity that doesn't feel real to her. As far as she knows, there's a good chance that if she comes out, at the very least, her relationship with you will be strained and there's a distinct possibility that you'll disown her. If that happens, she'll probably end up on the streets. And then, she starts to decide that the best thing would be to end it all. You may say that you'd support her if she comes out as trans, but if all you do before then is discourage it, there's no reason for her to believe that.

And another thing that pretty much all studies of transgender suicide rates note: The one thing that's guaranteed to decrease suicidality in transgender people is accepting their chosen gender identity. All that shit you've described as an political correctness gone mad in previous posts is the sort of thing that helps make them less suicidal. If you actually gave a shit about trans suicide, affirming their chosen gender is the sort of thing you'd need to do to lower it.

And on the off chance that anyone here thinks trans people are just mentally ill and that, with therapy, they can just get over it, I have to ask: if that actually worked, don't you think that they'd actually be doing that? \

You can discourage it while they're super young, but still at some point make it known to your child that you support trans identities and just don't think people that young should be making that decision. Then when they're a bit older, they shouldn't feel too uncomfortable coming to you and talking about it because you've already let it be known that you're accepting of those kinds of people. Maybe you're right and in some cases it could backfire. I don't know.

Yes, because if there's anything that causes children to thrive emotionally it is to send them mixed messages.