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Are miracles evidence of the existence of God?
#11
RE: Are miracles evidence of the existence of God?
(July 16, 2020 at 11:12 am)ido Wrote: Granted, if one arbitrarily defines a miracle as an act of God...then one might say the existence of a realTM miracle would prove God existed.  But if we just define a miracle as something that is not explainable by natural laws or science, then I don't think it would be evidence of the existence of God.

For argument sake, let's assume something inexplicable actually happened.

First, one would have to know that whatever happened was actually impossible to have been due to natural laws or causes.  It seems there is enough we don't know about the natural world that that is unlikely to ever be known.

Second, even IF one COULD know for certain that whatever happened could not have been due to 'natural laws' and/or nature, that would still leave other plausible explanations..e.g. some 'outside of nature' or 'supernatural' force that either acts randomly/inexplicably or that could be somehow controlled by humans or other beings with minds,  Of course this  explanation would be evidence of some sort of supernatural and maybe even that (some) human minds can access. 

From a personal standpoint, I'm not convinced any actual miracles (events that cannot be explained through nature) have ever occurred, although I have heard some pretty remarkable stories from people I believe were telling what they thought to be true.

First of all, if something inexplicable occurred, then that's what it is, inexplicable. Claiming something inexplicable occurred, then explaining it by claiming it is a miracle, sounds like an argument from ignorance fallacy.

And second, you are correct, even if an event seems like it breaks all natural laws, where is the justification to claim it was caused by a god? How were all other unknown explanations ruled out?

For a god to be considered as an explanation, there has to be some justification to consider it a possible explanation. And possibility has to be demonstrated.

You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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#12
RE: Are miracles evidence of the existence of God?
derp derp
I don't have an anger problem, I have an idiot problem.
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#13
RE: Are miracles evidence of the existence of God?
(July 16, 2020 at 11:47 am)Brian37 Wrote: There are no such things as "miracles".

Says the man who somehow got home alive. Read
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#14
RE: Are miracles evidence of the existence of God?
As a good Hume-anist, I find it nonsensical to even talk about miracles. If a miracle can be defined as an act of God (either direct or indirect) that contravenes natural law, we’re already at a dead end - any evidence (such as eyewitnesses) to a ‘miraculous’ event will necessarily be outweighed by naturalistic explanations.

Hume settled this almost 300 years ago. It puzzles me that people still yammer about it.

Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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#15
RE: Are miracles evidence of the existence of God?
This sketch pretty much nails it



teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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#16
RE: Are miracles evidence of the existence of God?
(July 16, 2020 at 11:12 am)ido Wrote: First, one would have to know that whatever happened was actually impossible to have been due to natural laws or causes.  It seems there is enough we don't know about the natural world that that is unlikely to ever be known.

As far as I can tell, in biblical times miracles were not described as supernatural. 

For on thing, our modern distinction between natural and supernatural didn't exist yet. People thought that there were demons, angels, etc., existing naturally in the world. They were just part of the world. And they could do things that humans can't, in the same way that humans can do things that snails can't. 

The original Greek words in the Bible which are translated as "miracle" in English are semeion, meaning "sign," teras, meaning "wonder," and dynamis, meaning "power." So a miracle is a sign from God, a wondrous event, or a show of power. None of these is necessarily supernatural. The Latin Vulgate for these three terms is signum, prodigium, and virtus, respectively. 

The English word "miracle" is derived from Latin miraculum, meaning an object of wonder. Mirari means to be astonished, and mirus means amazing.

So it appears that originally, miracles were thought to be amazing wonderful things, signs from God or demonstrations of his power, but not necessarily supernatural. That's a modern addition. 

Some miracles in the Bible might appear supernatural to us now, like the parting of the Red Sea. Others not so much: when the birds brought bread to Elijah in the wilderness, there was nothing supernatural about that. Birds can carry stuff, and you can even train them to carry to certain places. 

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Also I think we can take different kinds of things as evidence.

An event is not evidence just in and of itself. It becomes evidence when someone takes it as support for a proposition or theory. In practice we use all kinds of things as evidence.

So in science it is better not to use widespread belief or hearsay as evidence. But in life we do it all the time. If everybody in my neighborhood gossips that Dentist A is good and Dentist B is bad, I'm going to take this widespread belief as evidence and choose my dentist accordingly. It's not proof, but it's evidence. 

Likewise for people who already interpret the world as being full of various wonders, an inexplicable or amazing event can add credence to the theories they have about the world. For them, it becomes evidence. 

For atheists, who don't hold to the theory that God acts in the world, we don't interpret inexplicable events as evidence for this.
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#17
RE: Are miracles evidence of the existence of God?
(July 16, 2020 at 11:12 am)ido Wrote: Granted, if one arbitrarily defines a miracle as an act of God...then one might say the existence of a realTM miracle would prove God existed.  But if we just define a miracle as something that is not explainable by natural laws or science, then I don't think it would be evidence of the existence of God.

If you define it that way, and we somehow saw ourselves observing such an event (though epistemologically, how could we know?) then it at least would be evidence for the supernatural imo. The question, for me, is if such a thing has ever been observed by us.

Quote:For argument sake, let's assume something inexplicable actually happened.

See, this is where you unknowingly jumped to a different sort of argument. If by "inexplicable", you mean you can't think of a naturalistic explanation for the event under consideration, then that's a different question. But the answer would still be somewhat the same, yes, it would provisionally be a piece of evidence for the supernatural. But you still have to consider all relevant pieces of evidence and not just jump hastily to one conclusion because of one piece of evidence.

Quote:First, one would have to know that whatever happened was actually impossible to have been due to natural laws or causes.  It seems there is enough we don't know about the natural world that that is unlikely to ever be known.

Good point. I agree.

Quote:Second, even IF one COULD know for certain that whatever happened could not have been due to 'natural laws' and/or nature, that would still leave other plausible explanations..e.g. some 'outside of nature' or 'supernatural' force that either acts randomly/inexplicably or that could be somehow controlled by humans or other beings with minds,  Of course this  explanation would be evidence of some sort of supernatural and maybe even that (some) human minds can access.

Another good point that I agree with. Basically what I said.

Quote:From a personal standpoint, I'm not convinced any actual miracles (events that cannot be explained through nature) have ever occurred, although I have heard some pretty remarkable stories from people I believe were telling what they thought to be true.

Same. For me, I can be convinced but they'd first have to make a very convincing case with observable examples to support their position. Otherwise, I can just remind myself of what I've learned in psychology and think up psychological explanations for these accounts that do away with the necessity for the supernatural.
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#18
RE: Are miracles evidence of the existence of God?
(July 16, 2020 at 12:00 pm)masoni Wrote: What exactly defines "supernatural" can be rather tricky. People used to believe the sun was a god (now we know it's a giant ball of gas). People used to think the rain was caused by a rain deity (now we know condensation). People sued to think shizophrenia was caused by demons (now we know it's issues with the brain). Just because something isn't explained by our current understanding of naturalism doesn't necessarily mean it's "supernatural", it just mean it hasn't been scientifically explained yet. Imagine if we discovered a race of aliens that could start fires with their mind. Is that necessarily "supernatural"? No, it just means we don't quite understand the naturalistic beans by which they're able to do it (perhaps their brains can give off high, intense heat waves).

Over our species history, there have been countless bullshit explanations humans have made up as to why things happen, only later for others to be unafraid to work to find out what was really going on. That human curiosity isn't exclusive to one religion or period of time. There has always been WORLDWIDE humans whom have dared to question social norms.

"Supernatural" is like "miracle" simply another superstitious word humans use to excuse not knowing. 

The truth is there is no such thing as 100% perfect knowledge. But, our species ride has not ended yet, and there is lots we will still discover as a species..... But, if I am hedging bets on what works and what does not work, I am not going to bet on old mythology or superstition.
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#19
RE: Are miracles evidence of the existence of God?
I don't think a supernatural world/realm exists, but IF it did then perhaps the 'unexplainable' could be due to some humans being able to access/manipulate that realm.
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#20
RE: Are miracles evidence of the existence of God?
(July 16, 2020 at 3:11 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: As a good Hume-anist, I find it nonsensical to even talk about miracles. If a miracle can be defined as an act of God (either direct or indirect) that contravenes natural law, we’re already at a dead end - any evidence (such as eyewitnesses) to a ‘miraculous’ event will necessarily be outweighed by naturalistic explanations.

Hume settled this almost 300 years ago. It puzzles me that people still yammer about it.

Boru

All true and agreed.

Like I said: Supernatural, noun---that which if you have evidence of it it isn't itself.

Although, technically "supernatural" is an adjective.... so I should have said supernaturalness, supernaturality or supernature.

Even better, just miracle.


Miracle: Noun. That which if you have evidence of it it it swallows itself up into nonexistence.
"Zen … does not confuse spirituality with thinking about God while one is peeling potatoes. Zen spirituality is just to peel the potatoes." - Alan Watts
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