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RE: Are miracles evidence of the existence of God?
July 17, 2020 at 9:37 am
(July 16, 2020 at 11:55 am)ModusPonens1 Wrote: (July 16, 2020 at 11:47 am)Brian37 Wrote: Life is a crap shoot
Very true indeed. Because it's (1) Fun, (2) Completely luck-based and (3) Usually an expensive waste of time at best and life destroying at worst.
The superstitious call it a "miracle", the sane laypeople call it "luck" but the truth is it is living or dying are simply a matter of conditions either way. And we don't always find the exact details. But the one thing that is certain, is magic is never involved either way.
There is no God/god/deity or even karma playing a part in our species lives. There are only conditions with countless factors that lead both ways.
Humans certainly are capable of inventing ways to reduce risk. But that is a matter of evolution, not divine intervention or luck.
I don't like the word "luck" either. Not so much in that it IS more accurate, but in that using that it gives fuel to the superstitious. I like talking in terms of sample rates and probability and conditions on a case by case basis. But that doesn't translate as well as "divine intervention" or "luck". Humans are unfortunately far more bumper sticker thinkers than slow intentional pragmatic thinkers.
"Luck" is better than "superstition" for sure. There are not enough "0" or "1"s we can comprehend, and QM gets quite freaky.
But I like to look at life much like a hurricane, GAWD, I know you are going to respond.
In all seriousness, I look at life as both predictable and random, not either or. Just like you can predict the conditions that can potentially lead to a hurricane, but you can't predict the exact number of rain drops it produces from beginning to end.
If someone dies or survives a plane crash, or heart attack, it isn't magic or a god or luck, but conditions. And sometimes we don't get the answers of those conditions.
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RE: Are miracles evidence of the existence of God?
July 19, 2020 at 11:00 pm
(This post was last modified: July 19, 2020 at 11:01 pm by WinterHold.)
I believe that even if we're seeing a miracle right in front of us, those who choose to believe will believe but those who choose not to believe will not believe.
Space is literally a miracle in itself, most humans know about the phenomena it has; from rain of diamonds on some planets to black holes to pulsars; but many people don't believe in a creator after knowing about them.
So it depends on the person. If the person rejects God; nothing will make them believe in God, literally nothing.
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RE: Are miracles evidence of the existence of God?
July 19, 2020 at 11:16 pm
(This post was last modified: July 19, 2020 at 11:18 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Why would seeing or knowing about something other than a god convince any person that there are gods? It doesn't follow. If a person tells you that they're an atheist and you say -"but diamond planets exist!" you've lost the pulse. Atheists can believe in planets. We live on one. We're not a-planetists. That's your incompetence, not the atheist's problem.
If you insist that something like this actually does inform your beliefs, I could only conclude that you are an unserious person with a poorly developed faith.
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RE: Are miracles evidence of the existence of God?
July 20, 2020 at 7:26 am
(This post was last modified: July 20, 2020 at 7:27 am by BrianSoddingBoru4.)
(July 19, 2020 at 11:00 pm)WinterHold Wrote: I believe that even if we're seeing a miracle right in front of us, those who choose to believe will believe but those who choose not to believe will not believe.
Space is literally a miracle in itself, most humans know about the phenomena it has; from rain of diamonds on some planets to black holes to pulsars; but many people don't believe in a creator after knowing about them.
So it depends on the person. If the person rejects God; nothing will make them believe in God, literally nothing.
But all of these things have more prosaic explanations than godism. We know the temperature and pressure needed to create diamonds, we have a pretty good grasp of black holes, and we know why pulsars pulse. A universe with diamond rain, black holes and pulsars wouldn't look any different if God existed. This makes God an unnecessary explanation.
Natural phenomena are not - and never can be - evidence for gods.
Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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RE: Are miracles evidence of the existence of God?
July 20, 2020 at 9:23 am
(July 19, 2020 at 11:00 pm)WinterHold Wrote: I believe that even if we're seeing a miracle right in front of us, those who choose to believe will believe but those who choose not to believe will not believe.
Space is literally a miracle in itself, most humans know about the phenomena it has; from rain of diamonds on some planets to black holes to pulsars; but many people don't believe in a creator after knowing about them.
So it depends on the person. If the person rejects God; nothing will make them believe in God, literally nothing.
Wrong! If there is truly an omniscient God, he knows what is in everyone's mind and what it would take to convince them that he exists. I have rational standards about what I believe or don't believe. Thus far, I've never received even a busy signal from any deity.
"The world is my country; all of humanity are my brethren; and to do good deeds is my religion." (Thomas Paine)
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RE: Are miracles evidence of the existence of God?
July 20, 2020 at 9:27 am
There aren't miracles. There are unexplained events that idiots refer to as miracles, certainly.
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RE: Are miracles evidence of the existence of God?
July 20, 2020 at 11:14 am
(July 20, 2020 at 9:23 am)Gwaithmir Wrote: (July 19, 2020 at 11:00 pm)WinterHold Wrote: I believe that even if we're seeing a miracle right in front of us, those who choose to believe will believe but those who choose not to believe will not believe.
Space is literally a miracle in itself, most humans know about the phenomena it has; from rain of diamonds on some planets to black holes to pulsars; but many people don't believe in a creator after knowing about them.
So it depends on the person. If the person rejects God; nothing will make them believe in God, literally nothing.
Wrong! If there is truly an omniscient God, he knows what is in everyone's mind and what it would take to convince them that he exists. I have rational standards about what I believe or don't believe. Thus far, I've never received even a busy signal from any deity.
omniscient god would have no logical reason to test anyone
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RE: Are miracles evidence of the existence of God?
July 20, 2020 at 4:06 pm
(July 20, 2020 at 9:23 am)Gwaithmir Wrote: (July 19, 2020 at 11:00 pm)WinterHold Wrote: I believe that even if we're seeing a miracle right in front of us, those who choose to believe will believe but those who choose not to believe will not believe.
Space is literally a miracle in itself, most humans know about the phenomena it has; from rain of diamonds on some planets to black holes to pulsars; but many people don't believe in a creator after knowing about them.
So it depends on the person. If the person rejects God; nothing will make them believe in God, literally nothing.
Wrong! If there is truly an omniscient God, he knows what is in everyone's mind and what it would take to convince them that he exists. I have rational standards about what I believe or don't believe. Thus far, I've never received even a busy signal from any deity.
Ya, Dillahunty uses that line of argument, and he has a point.
This claimed god knows what would convince you, me or any atheist to believe in him/her/it/housecat.
Therefore, this god could easily convince you, me, or any atheist to believe in him/her/it/housecat.
But this god refuses to do so. Therefore he/she/it/housecat actually intends that we remain atheists and we are merely fulfilling his/her/its/housecats will by doing so.
In consequence, theists are going against god's will by attempting to convince us that he/she/it/housecat actually exists.
That puts the theist in opposition to god and so they are condemned to hell for opposing god's will.
The theists are not trying to save us, they are damning themselves.
God then vanishes because logic.
One can play with this and develop all manner of unintended consequences. Usually, the next whine is free will, which argument garners a whole bucket of contradictions of it's own.
Or perhaps Kalam, which is risible. WLC has made a career out of that crap.
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RE: Are miracles evidence of the existence of God?
July 20, 2020 at 8:06 pm
(This post was last modified: July 20, 2020 at 8:07 pm by ignoramus.)
(July 20, 2020 at 7:26 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: A universe with diamond rain, black holes and pulsars wouldn't look any different if God existed.
Boru
Really? Did God tell you that?
How is knowing what God wants or does any different to knowing what God doesn't do or want?
sorry, logic nazi.
No God, No fear.
Know God, Know fear.
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RE: Are miracles evidence of the existence of God?
July 20, 2020 at 10:02 pm
(July 20, 2020 at 11:14 am)masoni Wrote: (July 20, 2020 at 9:23 am)Gwaithmir Wrote: Wrong! If there is truly an omniscient God, he knows what is in everyone's mind and what it would take to convince them that he exists. I have rational standards about what I believe or don't believe. Thus far, I've never received even a busy signal from any deity.
omniscient god would have no logical reason to test anyone
The potential believer is not being put to the test here...the claim that God exists is.
"The world is my country; all of humanity are my brethren; and to do good deeds is my religion." (Thomas Paine)
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