[Serious] What God's justification for eternal torment?

[Sal]

How do you lawfully murder someone, if murder is unlawful killing?  How do you lawfully unlawfully kill someone?  That's a contradication.

As for the non-sequitur, how does it not follow that if God can give life, he can take it away?  I wasn't referring to humans there.

And finally you call me in error for not expressing an opinion about the other adjectives??

Do you think man-made laws are descriptive?

How do you square that god, in giving life, supposedly along with the Free Will™, is also sanctioned in ending it? You're arguing for nothing different than for parents to murder their children at a whim. Again, abhorrent and disgusting.

[SuicideCommando01]

[quote pid='1998124' dateline='1599864470']
No, God didn't make us sinful, creation was good, and man was very good.  It was man that chose to sin, and passed that on to his offspring - don't blame your problems on God.




[/quote]
Man had no knowledge of good or evil, So its God's fault for not informing them why they shouldn't eat from the tree. Oh and by the way God is supposedly the planner of EVERYTHING, which basically also includes choices and where you will end up, theres even bible quotes to support it. Free will is an illusion.

[runewell]

How do you lawfully murder someone, if murder is unlawful killing?  How do you lawfully unlawfully kill someone?  That's a contradiction.

Because isn't defined by it's lawfulness . Thus it's not a contradiction to say murder can be lawful. Murder is a malicious and unjustifiable act against an undeserving person and indeed authorities can and do commit such acts . 

As for the non-sequitur, how does it not follow that if God can give life, he can take it away?  I wasn't referring to humans there.

It doesn't matter what your referring to . It does not follow that if something gives life it can take it away 

And finally you call me in error for not expressing an opinion about the other adjectives??

I imagine you object to those  adjectives. If so you are in error because they all fit .

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No, God didn't make us sinful, creation was good, and man was very good.  It was man that chose to sin, and passed that on to his offspring - don't blame your problems on God.

If god creates it . He bears all the blame for it's current state regardless of any other decision made by any other being . In fact even creating being with choice is blameworthy , And the fact man had the option of sin when no such option was necessary even for free will is blameworthy

Look up the definition - it's no good making up your own.  Murder is specifically unlawful killing of another human.  God isn't even human (well, apart from Jesus who didn't kill anyone as a human) so it wouldn't apply to him anyway.  If a policeman kills someone then he is either not guilty and it was lawful or convicted and it was murder.

As for the non-sequitur, It does follow that if God gives life, then God can take it away; that's the privilege of being God.  I would agree in wouldn't necessarily follow for humans. 

I won't even speak to the third part - I didn't even express a viewpoint and you're already pre-judging me.

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[quote pid='1998124' dateline='1599864470']
No, God didn't make us sinful, creation was good, and man was very good.  It was man that chose to sin, and passed that on to his offspring - don't blame your problems on God.

Man had no knowledge of good or evil, So its God's fault for not informing them why they shouldn't eat from the tree. Oh and by the way God is supposedly the planner of EVERYTHING, which basically also includes choices and where you will end up, theres even bible quotes to support it. Free will is an illusion.
[/quote]

God had no requirement to give them any explanation, he can reveal whatever he wishes and keep hidden what he wishes.  They went ahead and disobeyed anyway - not God's fault.  Sure God knew what would happen, and knew who he was creating, but that doesn't in any way negate our free will.  Are you telling me that God is making you post on this forum?  Or are you choosing to do it yourself?

[The Architect Of Fate]

Look up the definition - it's no good making up your own. 

The definition i have used is logical and consistent 

 Murder is specifically unlawful killing of another human. 

Murder is the unreasonable and malicious killing of sentient beings 

 God isn't even human (well, apart from Jesus who didn't kill anyone as a human) so it wouldn't apply to him anyway. 

Human or not it's still murder god doesn't get exemptions

 If a policeman kills someone then he is either not guilty and it was lawful or convicted and it was murder.

If a police kills someone without justification and with malicious intent he has committed murder whether he is found guilty or not 

As for the non-sequitur, It does follow that if God gives life, then God can take it away; that's the privilege of being God.  I would agree in wouldn't necessarily follow for humans. 

No it doesn't simply asserting he can because he's god does not make it not a non sequitur ,And it doesn't matter if it's human or not the same rules apply despite your assertions .

I won't even speak to the third part - I didn't even express a viewpoint and you're already pre-judging me.

You didn't express an opinion your response alone gave a distinct impression of disapproval . If that bothers you i'm sorry .

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Man had no knowledge of good or evil, So its God's fault for not informing them why they shouldn't eat from the tree.

Actually it is in fact it's fault for making the tree in the first place 

 Oh and by the way God is supposedly the planner of EVERYTHING,

So he planned to have humans fall . Which even more makes it his fault 

 which basically also includes choices and where you will end up, theres even bible quotes to support it. Free will is an illusion.

Which makes it even more his fault 

God had no requirement to give them any explanation,

And nothing stopped him from doing so and avoiding doing so makes him responsible 

 he can reveal whatever he wishes and keep hidden what he wishes.

Yup and bares all the blame for doing so 

  They went ahead and disobeyed anyway - not God's fault. 

Yes it is . 

 Sure God knew what would happen, and knew who he was creating, but that doesn't in any way negate our free will.

Yes it does and even if it didn't he still bares all the blame 

  Are you telling me that God is making you post on this forum?  Or are you choosing to do it yourself?

Irrelevant

[GUBU]

No, God didn't make us sinful, creation was good, and man was very good.  It was man that chose to sin, and passed that on to his offspring - don't blame your problems on God.

Are you saying god's not all powerful nor all knowing? That'd be going against a basic christian belief.

[Mister Agenda]

Is runewell saying that it would not be murder if someone from an alien killed a human? It's unlikely that would ever happen, but I'm not sure we want to say in advance that it's okay. I don't think our animal cruelty laws provide adequate protection.

[Angrboda]

Justifications for murder vary from country to country and even state to state. So even though it is defined as unlawful killing, that is an undefined standard, so there's room for more liberal uses of the word than that. Language is slippery. It can be hard to pin down exact meanings, and ultimately it's a question of usage.

[Nay_Sayer]

No, God didn't make us sinful, creation was good, and man was very good.  It was man that chose to sin, and passed that on to his offspring - don't blame your problems on God.

Are you saying god's not all powerful nor all knowing?  That'd be going against a basic christian belief.

It'll be a tap-dancing answer the likes of which will put Riverdance to shame.  If only he knew he's worshiping a false idol.

RAmen

[The Grand Nudger]

God had no requirement to give them any explanation, he can reveal whatever he wishes and keep hidden what he wishes.  They went ahead and disobeyed anyway - not God's fault.  Sure God knew what would happen, and knew who he was creating, but that doesn't in any way negate our free will.  Are you telling me that God is making you post on this forum?  Or are you choosing to do it yourself?

The trouble with foreknowledge and free will has nothing to do with a god, or with anyone making anyone else do anything.  

Laying aside the logical issues with foreknowledge and free will entirely, we'll have further moral difficulty understanding why an attribute that would make us responsible for x would not also make a god responsible for x.  If we do something knowing full well the consequence of that act, we hold ourselves responsible for that outcome.  

Do we hold gods to lesser standards than men?

[runewell]

God had no requirement to give them any explanation, he can reveal whatever he wishes and keep hidden what he wishes.  They went ahead and disobeyed anyway - not God's fault.  Sure God knew what would happen, and knew who he was creating, but that doesn't in any way negate our free will.  Are you telling me that God is making you post on this forum?  Or are you choosing to do it yourself?

The trouble with foreknowledge and free will has nothing to do with a god, or with anyone making anyone else do anything.  

Laying aside the logical issues with foreknowledge and free will entirely, we'll have further moral difficulty understanding why an attribute that would make us responsible for x would not also make a god responsible for x.  If we do something knowing full well the consequence of that act, we hold ourselves responsible for that outcome.  

Do we hold gods to lesser standards than men?

We don't hold God to any standards, because He is God.  You can make up any standard you like, but you would be totally powerless to enforce it, so it is a moot point.  Therefore, it does not follow that if we are responsible for X then God is also responsible for X.