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[Serious] What God's justification for eternal torment?
#51
RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
(August 20, 2020 at 1:45 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: My objection is wrong, you contend, because it's factually inaccurate - not because it's morally inaccurate...
Do you believe that god has the power to save?  Do you believe that everyone is saved? 

Correct; everyone has been offered salvation. And it is inaccurate, irrespective of moral opinions, to say that a person refusing salvation is the same as God failing to save them.

As a former EMT my abilities as a medical provider were limited by consent. A patient has the right to refuse care, partially or in its entirety, even if it results in death or injury. It doesn't matter that I had both the training and equipment to help someone; to provide care when a person has refused it is a criminal offense. I think it is both unfortunate and inaccurate to say that a medical provider has killed someone, or failed to help them, when their services are being refused.
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#52
RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
You're not taking your time, and that's a shame.

The notion here is that the dead refuse life, this is not a credible notion by reference to the living. I'll note that you have failed to object to the moral content yet again.

I'm going to take the above as acknowledgment that I have not misrepresented your beliefs in any way, as you suggested I had. God has the power to save, but will not save everyone. God does and does not do exactly what I suggested - you simply believe that it has it's reasons for what it does and does not do. Exactly as I suggested. I don't expect acknowledgement or an apology - christian moral degeneracy and all that.

We all have our reasons for doing bad things. Telling me that a god has it's reasons to do bad things doesn't resolve the objection to a god doing bad things - and that was your cults objection.

Referring to some legal reason you fail to help doesn't make it less of a failure to help, or less bad - just more legal. I weep for the cosmos if this is the author of creation's defense, and it certainly wasn't what your cult objected to in the snippet you offered.

I know that if a person did the things that you believe your god to have done, you would call that person evil. I know that if a person offered the rationalizations you've offered, you would object. I know this because you routinely fail to object to the moral content - and have offered a criticism of others god beliefs based on moral content. Arguing, instead, that god totally wasn't doing the bad thing- even when it was - and even if you accurately believe that it was. If you didn't agree with me or your own snippet on the moral content of these remarks..there would be no reason to disagree on their factual accuracy.

I understand your beliefs. Everyone does. You haven't shut up about them for centuries - that's what happens. Accept that an atheist can understand and accurately represent your beliefs - and still object, just as you can accurately state and object to the beliefs of other christians. God fails to help -for whatever reason- ....this sounds bad, but you believe it to be true. It's an accurate representation of your own beliefs (and, coincidentally, reality) - and I'll leave you to twist yourself into knots over it..because that's not my bag at all.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#53
RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
(August 20, 2020 at 3:37 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: You're not taking your time, and that's a shame.  

The notion here is that the dead refuse life, this is not a credible notion by reference to the living.  I'll note that you have failed to object to the moral content yet again.  

I'm going to take the above as acknowledgment that I have not misrepresented your beliefs in any way, as you suggested I had.  God has the power to save, but will not save everyone.  God does and does not do exactly what I suggested - you simply believe that it has it's reasons for what it does and does not do.  Exactly as I suggested.  I don't expect acknowledgement or an apology - christian moral degeneracy and all that.

We all have our reasons for doing bad things.  Telling me that a god has it's reasons to do bad things doesn't resolve the objection to a god doing bad things - and that was your cults objection.

Referring to some legal reason you fail to help doesn't make it less of a failure to help, or less bad - just more legal.  I weep for the cosmos if this is the author of creation's defense, and it certainly wasn't what your cult objected to in the snippet you offered.  

I know that if a person did the things that you believe your god to have done, you would call that person evil.  I  know that if a person offered the rationalizations you've offered, you would object.  I know this because you routinely fail to object to the moral content - and have offered a criticism of others god beliefs based on moral content.  Arguing, instead, that god totally wasn't doing the bad thing- even when it was - and even if you accurately believe that it was.  If you didn't agree with me or your own snippet on the moral content of these remarks..there would be no reason to disagree on their factual accuracy.  

I understand your beliefs.  Everyone does.  You haven't shut up about them for centuries - that's what happens.  Accept that an atheist can understand and accurately represent your beliefs - and still object, just as you can accurately state and object to the beliefs of other christians.  God fails to help -for whatever reason- ....this sounds bad, but you believe it to be true.  It's an accurate representation of your own beliefs (and, coincidentally, reality) - and I'll leave you to twist yourself into knots over it..because that's not my bag at all.

I remember recently someone asking me why I Rejected a life time of theism, in my case Christianity, it's a question the answer to which I had been trying to formulate for many years, I knew why but there seemed to be so many reasons and i couldn't simplify it into a single answer that would express what i really felt, that I understood and at the same time throw out a challenge.

To the person who asked why i had lost my faith, I replied that I didn't loose my faith, I had simply ran out of reasonable excuses for my gods behaviour. Christians don't realise the that their indoctrinated answers, in reality answer very little, as at crunch time they always resort to having to put god beyond the limits of any test.

(August 20, 2020 at 3:33 pm)John 6IX Breezy Wrote: Correct; everyone has been offered salvation. And it is inaccurate, irrespective of moral opinions, to say that a person refusing salvation is the same as God failing to save them.

Saved from what (that isn't god's responsibility for creating in the first place) ?
'Those who ask a lot of questions may seem stupid, but those who don't ask questions stay stupid'
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#54
RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
(August 20, 2020 at 3:37 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: God fails to help -for whatever reason- ....this sounds bad, but you believe it to be true. It's an accurate representation of your own beliefs (and, coincidentally, reality)

That is not an accurate representation of my beliefs.
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#55
RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
Guess I'll see you in heaven then.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#56
RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
(August 20, 2020 at 11:17 am)Gwaithmir Wrote:
(August 20, 2020 at 9:49 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: Not sure it's valid. That matter and energy can neither be created nor destroyed holds within the universe, it doesn't necessarily apply TO the universe. I think it's a fallacy of composition. That doesn't mean it's not true, but I think we can't say for sure that it HAS to be true.

I see no reason why it HAS to be false either, and it's a much more plausible explanation than the universe being created ex nihilo by an invisible man in the sky.

I never said or even implied or could be reasonably construed to insinuate that it HAS to be false (in fact I feel my phrasing implies that it doesn't have to be false) and certainly didn't intimate that a deity creating the cosmos ex nihilo was reasonable at all. There are multiple hypotheses for the origin of the state which held before the Initial Expansion, including the possibility that it originated from a quantum vacuum fluctuation. All of the hypotheses with merit are supported by math that works and what we know of physics. We have no means yet of testing any of them. The only honest answer to 'Where did all the matter and energy in the universe come from?' is 'We don't know, yet.' You CAN say with rational certainty though that all matter and energy in the cosmos has existed since time began. Cool
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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#57
RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
The very problem that a fallacy of composition refers to is that so-and-so doesn't have to be true or false.

That the specific contents of any fallacy of composition can be sound, but that can't guarantee the truth of the conclusion. It can be true that aluminum doesn't fly, but that can't guarantee that a 747 can't fly. What may be true of a or all parts may not be true of the whole (if there is even such a thing as parts and wholes).

As all cosmological arguments begin with some observation of the parts of this universe - hence "cosmological" - and as all cosmological arguments then proceed towards a comment on the whole, all cosmological arguments necessarily reduce the value and confidence of their conclusions by nature of the argumentative form. The argument that the big bang was -the beginning- in the relevant cosmological sense is just such an argument - and as MA described above, rationally, we can't say that we know or have proved this to be the case. It might be, but we can't have confidence that it is, because our observations of the parts may not hold of the whole.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#58
RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
(August 20, 2020 at 11:25 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Guess I'll see you in heaven then.

Correct; or it may turn out that you're there and I'm not. I'm not saved by my theism any more than you are lost by your atheism. If anything my expectations are higher for taking the name of Christian.

Since Christians see themselves as spiritual Jews. I've replaced the words Jews and Gentiles in the following verses with Christian and Atheist to make the point clear:

"For when atheists, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus." -Romans 2:14-16

"But if you call yourself a Christian and rely on the law and boast in God and know his will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed from the law; and if you are sure that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of children, having in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth—you then who teach others, do you not teach yourself? While you preach against stealing, do you steal? You who say that one must not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? You who boast in the law dishonor God by breaking the law. For, as it is written, 'The name of God is blasphemed among the atheists because of you.'" -Romans 2:17
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#59
RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
If you're not there, then god failed to help at least once. Our respective positions on belief are irrelevant to some third party's failure. Nothing about either of us, or any additional parties, is relevant.

Let's say that I blew the dam, and you took out the warning speakers. Some poor schmuck is about to get flooded out. The object of our moral consideration - let's call him Joe - sees this, could stop it, but doesn't. He didn't start it, it's not his fault, but he has the poor schmucks life in his hands - which is a situation of moral import all by itself -. What sort of character has Joe displayed here? Good character, or bad character? A plain reading would strongly suggest bad character. Now, we can propose whatever reason we like, and we can propose whatever goal we desire, for the explanation of why Joe displayed bad character in a situation with moral import...but it's important to acknowledge that this is what we're doing, if so.

Telling me that you don't know who god will fail and who god won't fail doesn't answer any objection to god failing. No more so than proposing god disposes instead of burns, or fails to help instead of disposing, would or could answer an objection to a god doing a bad thing.

Some of us apply those same standards to god beliefs - and it's because of this consistent standard that we cannot be a member of your cult. Not for things we disagree about, but because of things we agree about, that one party applies equally to gods..and the other party does not. Now, that won't make you change your mind about gods existing, probably doesn't touch your own intuitions about gods goodness, either..but it could and should change your mind with respect to how, and how accurately, a person can object to your cult - without having gotten anything wrong.

I've determined that the character of your god, if it did exist, and if it did or does what -you- say it did or does, is not worthy of worship - assuming that anything is to begin with. There are shitty people in this world, who show bad character as moral agents, if I was interested in bending the knee to bad people. No need to look up for that one. When we dial our moral consideration up by orders of magnitude, to a god, and all that god-ness demands and implies, it's hard for me to believe that the standards should drop. That we should expect less from gods than from lowly human worms. More from the child that doesn't know what's good for them, than the parent who does.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#60
RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
(August 21, 2020 at 12:34 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: If you're not there, then god failed to help at least once.

The phrase, The patient refused service, is not synonymous with, The paramedic failed to help. The English language makes it so that the two sentences do not mean the same thing. They both have different subjects performing different actions on different objects. Even in passive form the phrase, The patient refused service, still only transforms to, The service was refused by the patient, and does not involve the paramedic.

This isn't up for dispute. When an ambulance responds to a call they are under a legal duty to act. Failure to act is grounds for legal action. But when an ambulance arrives and the patient refuses service, that is no longer a failure of the paramedic to help. There is a very clear distinctions between the two phrases, and that distinction is potentially criminal. Why do you ignore that difference in meaning?

You yourself said that I'm more concerned with factual accuracy than morality; so why continue emphasizing the badness of an event that I view as inaccurate? Your dam analogy is not synonymous with my paramedic analogy. Stick with my paramedic analogy and then we can discuss the goodness or badness of it.
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