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[Serious] What God's justification for eternal torment?
RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
(December 1, 2020 at 9:19 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Do you think that there's no way to know...
I haven't studied epistemology that much.  Have you?
What do we know and how we know it?  
What are the different kinds of knowledge?  
What's the basis of our knowledge?  
All good questions.  
I find myself asking - If there is a way to "know" God exists, what would that be like?
Would we die and just see God with eyes and hear God talk?  
Would that be enough?  
Wouldn't there be other explanations for what I'm experiencing?  
Would I be absurd to deny my experience?  What's more absurd - that I die and God is chatting to me - and it's real / or that it's all made up in my imagination?   Dunno
Quote:or no way for you personally to know...
I have satisfied my self that my own experiences with God were real.   
Quote:which, if any of these guesses is accurate, or more or less accurate, than another?  More or less probable, plausible, desirable, moral?  
I don't know (again). haha
I'll have to wait and see if I'm right.  (or not).
Quote:If it's a black box I have to wonder what made you come up with these specific things, 

I don't know (again) what a black box is.
I listened to people who say they had a near death experience.  One person in particular said he was taken to a "life review".  He said he was watching his life take place in front of him but he could also feel how his actions had impacted others.  He said the angels and Jesus were there with him watching as well - sharing their feelings with him on the matter.  That's where part of the guess I made came from.

Quote:and if it's not a black box - then I see no reason why a person would have to die before answering any or all of those questions.  The faithful obviously haven't - it's a proviso that only seems to turn up when they consider that their beliefs may be wrong..and I suspect it's more about shielding them from being proven wrong than it is about a dry appraisal of the possibility of knowledge.
Are you saying some faithful people use copouts when they can't explain something?
If so, yeah, that probably happens.
People often get caught up in arguments and screw it up !!  They do all sorts of things when they get emotional - like defend a position they don't actually believe, or defend a position that isn't what they intended to say in the first place, or try to outsmart someone ??!!??  
Sometimes sell off an opinion as a fact etc etc  people are like that I guess.
Probably should get more used to sticking to the basics...If you don't know - say so.  If you do know - qualify what you mean by "knowledge" and then explain it if asked.  Also, people don't have to prove their belief in God or their belief that there is no God, unless they are trying to persuade someone else.

Quote:I suspect that we have different commitments and criteria for knowledge - as you're yet to suggest something which would be unknowable in principle or in practice, in this life, as I see it.
   
Probably true about criteria.  Commitments - If I knew God didn't exist I would not continue believing in God (is that what you mean by commitments?)  
  
G2G - Sorry for half cut off replies (does anyone else read these monster rambles??!! haha)
Reply
RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
(December 1, 2020 at 1:19 pm)Confused-by-christianity Wrote:
(December 1, 2020 at 9:19 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Do you think that there's no way to know...
I haven't studied epistemology that much.  Have you?
What do we know and how we know it?  
What are the different kinds of knowledge?  
What's the basis of our knowledge?  
All good questions.  
I find myself asking - If there is a way to "know" God exists, what would that be like?
Would we die and just see God with eyes and hear God talk?  
Would that be enough?  
Wouldn't there be other explanations for what I'm experiencing?  
Would I be absurd to deny my experience?  What's more absurd - that I die and God is chatting to me - and it's real / or that it's all made up in my imagination?   Dunno

There are an infinite variety of definitions for gods, so one can never disprove that there aren't some out there.

But you are talking specifically about the Christian god, not a deistic creator.  The Christian god has specific claimed attributes.  The bible makes claims as to what the god does for believers.  It makes claims about the god being in ultimate control of everything. 

The bible makes claims about the creation of the world, the fall of mankind from a world of paradise, and the imminent destruction of the world.

Many of these claims are testable.  Does this god pass the tests?  I would say, no, not at all.  Such a god is proven contradictory, morally compromised, and completely impotent.

Knowledge creates a framework for testable predictions.  Otherwise, it isn't knowledge.  You can't know a god if it doesn't do anything.  A god that supposedly does do things can and should be tested.

"I think God talked to me" is a not a test.  Your imagination talked to you.  Or perhaps it was some other magical being?  How would you know the difference? 

If the god gave us new physics that allowed us to travel to the stars, I'd admit that there exists something in your head that gives us incredible knowledge, though I wouldn't necessarily agree what it was.  But, if the "god" simply says "straighten up your life", or "I love you and forgive you", well any imaginary friend can do that.
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RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
(December 1, 2020 at 1:19 pm)Confused-by-christianity Wrote: Would we die and just see God with eyes and hear God talk?  
Spirit eyes and spirit ears, presumably - but it seems like that would be enough, right?  We refer to that sort of stuff all the time.

Quote:Would I be absurd to deny my experience?
Mostly, it seems so.  We refer to them routinely and it was an experience that convinced you that god was real.  

Quote:I'll have to wait and see if I'm right.  (or not).
-and that's where we differ. 

I don't think that you have to, because...as we've seen (lol) we both refer to what we can see and hear, to experience, to answer questions in this life.  Are there things about this life that we can see and hear - are there experiences in this life which provide the basis for rational conclusion about it?  Things like whether or not it's a soul forge, or..if it were, what kind of a forge it is?  


Quote:I don't know (again) what a black box is.
I listened to people who say they had a near death experience.  One person in particular said he was taken to a "life review".  He said he was watching his life take place in front of him but he could also feel how his actions had impacted others.  He said the angels and Jesus were there with him watching as well - sharing their feelings with him on the matter.  That's where part of the guess I made came from.
It's interesting how well reported ndes align with the cultural expectations of those reporting the stories.  The life review made for a watchable movie.

Quote:Are you saying some faithful people use copouts when they can't explain something?
If so, yeah, that probably happens.
People often get caught up in arguments and screw it up !!  They do all sorts of things when they get emotional - like defend a position they don't actually believe, or defend a position that isn't what they intended to say in the first place, or try to outsmart someone ??!!??  
Sometimes sell off an opinion as a fact etc etc  people are like that I guess.
I'm not overly concerned with theists being incapable of explaining this or that in context. I'd focus more on the private and intimate aspect of it, rather than any accusation that they were doing something to other people.  Trying to outsmart them or get one over on them.  If anything, they're trying to get one over on themselves.  

In many cases, a person suggesting the impossibility of knowledge is, themselves...convinced - and convinced by the same sorts of things that we all refer to for all of our other knowledge about every other thing.  Open to the idea of things which might give the belief the possibility of being a provably true statement.  They're merely closed to, unfamiliar with, or had never considered the possibility of it being a provably false statement.

A defense mechanism for cherished beliefs supported by a collaborating culture. We can see the latter half above in another posters response - the notion that because people can come up with a bajillion gods, gods can never be proven false. People can come up with a bajillion answers to the question of 2+2, as well. Doesn't affect the provability or falsifiability of a given answer. If we can't know, it isn't on account of how many gods people can imagine - but theists and atheists alike have been bombarded with statements like that equally for all of our formative years. It becomes an agreed upon fiction between people who, otherwise, might not agree on anything else god-related.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
(December 1, 2020 at 9:40 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: God's justification? Christians don't need justification from god when it comes to punishment. If their imaginary buddy treats them like shit, they are trained to endure it with a smile on their face. As are Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims.

I thought Buddhists don't believe in a god?
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RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
(December 6, 2020 at 7:50 pm)SuicideCommando01 Wrote:
(December 1, 2020 at 9:40 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: God's justification? Christians don't need justification from god when it comes to punishment. If their imaginary buddy treats them like shit, they are trained to endure it with a smile on their face. As are Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims.

I thought Buddhists don't believe in a god?
Yet Buddhist still have a hell
“The sun from far gives life. But get close to it and it burns anything down to ashes”

[Image: flag-ukraine_1f1fa-1f1e6.png]  Heart [Image: canada-google.png]        

 “No matter what men think, abortion is a fact of life. Women have always had them; they always have and they always will. Are they going to have good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be reserved for the rich, while the poor women go to quacks?”
–SHIRLEY CHISHOLM


      
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RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
Sorry, I can't possibly take [Serious] seriously.

Before I can, you need to provide convincing evidence of the reality of your claims.
Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
Reply
RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
(December 6, 2020 at 7:50 pm)SuicideCommando01 Wrote:
(December 1, 2020 at 9:40 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: God's justification? Christians don't need justification from god when it comes to punishment. If their imaginary buddy treats them like shit, they are trained to endure it with a smile on their face. As are Buddhists, Hindus, Muslims.

I thought Buddhists don't believe in a god?

I guess it depends on which denomination of buddhism you are talking about. For instance, Mahayana buddhism believes in God. From wikipedia:

Quote:According to Paul Williams, for the Mahāyāna, a Buddha is often seen as "a spiritual king, relating to and caring for the world", rather than simply a teacher who after his death "has completely ‘gone beyond’ the world and its cares".

Dr. Guang Xing describes the Mahāyāna Buddha as "an omnipotent divinity endowed with numerous supernatural attributes and qualities ...[He] is described almost as an omnipotent and almighty godhead."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahayana

And also, what are we to make of all those Buddhist deities?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_deities
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
(December 6, 2020 at 7:55 pm)SUNGULA Wrote:
(December 6, 2020 at 7:50 pm)SuicideCommando01 Wrote: I thought Buddhists don't believe in a god?
Yet Buddhist still have a hell

True, though this is not part of the teachings of Buddha.  Apparently someone decided that a hell was necessary to keep people in line (though it doesn't last forever, and apparently being a torturer in hell improves your Karma).  I would be surprised if many educated Buddhists believe in such a thing.

I actually like Buddha.  I don't believe any of the supernatural nonsense, but it was an improvement on Hinduism.
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RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
(December 1, 2020 at 1:53 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:
(December 1, 2020 at 1:19 pm)Confused-by-christianity Wrote: Would we die and just see God with eyes and hear God talk?  
Spirit eyes and spirit ears, presumably - but it seems like that would be enough, right?  We refer to that sort of stuff all the time.
Quote:Maybe it takes time to evolve that kind of sense and intellect.  Maybe the more you evolve spiritually the more you see.

Quote:Would I be absurd to deny my experience?
Mostly, it seems so.  We refer to them routinely and it was an experience that convinced you that god was real.  
Quote:Yeah - experience is important.  Something within me has to interpret it and frame it some way or another.  Here - there is room for an error or misinterpretation, but broadly speaking - experience is very important (to me).


Quote:I'll have to wait and see if I'm right.  (or not).
-and that's where we differ. 

I don't think that you have to, because...as we've seen (lol) we both refer to what we can see and hear, to experience, to answer questions in this life.  Are there things about this life that we can see and hear - are there experiences in this life which provide the basis for rational conclusion about it?  Things like whether or not it's a soul forge, or..if it were, what kind of a forge it is?
Quote:I'm referring to perfection.  Some things you might "know" now and then find out later on that you were wrong. 
  


Quote:I don't know (again) what a black box is.
I listened to people who say they had a near death experience.  One person in particular said he was taken to a "life review".  He said he was watching his life take place in front of him but he could also feel how his actions had impacted others.  He said the angels and Jesus were there with him watching as well - sharing their feelings with him on the matter.  That's where part of the guess I made came from.
It's interesting how well reported ndes align with the cultural expectations of those reporting the stories.  The life review made for a watchable movie.  
Quote:They share some things in common across cultures. 
I guess it's fair to think that God would talk to us in a way that we can just about understand.  Perhaps even slightly beyond our current comprehension (so we have to strive / grow to understand it?).

Quote:Are you saying some faithful people use copouts when they can't explain something?
If so, yeah, that probably happens.
People often get caught up in arguments and screw it up !!  They do all sorts of things when they get emotional - like defend a position they don't actually believe, or defend a position that isn't what they intended to say in the first place, or try to outsmart someone ??!!??  
Sometimes sell off an opinion as a fact etc etc  people are like that I guess.
I'm not overly concerned with theists being incapable of explaining this or that in context.  I'd focus more on the private and intimate aspect of it, rather than any accusation that they were doing something to other people.  Trying to outsmart them or get one over on them.  If anything, they're trying to get one over on themselves.  
Quote:You think (some) theists deceive themselves?


In many cases, a person suggesting the impossibility of knowledge is, themselves...convinced - and convinced by the same sorts of things that we all refer to for all of our other knowledge about every other thing.  Open to the idea of things which might give the belief the possibility of being a provably true statement.  They're merely closed to, unfamiliar with, or had never considered the possibility of it being a provably false statement.
Quote:You're saying, some people, instead of just saying a thing is proven false - they prefer to say it is impossible to know?  And so deceive themselves deliberately / subconsciously?

A defense mechanism for cherished beliefs supported by a collaborating culture.  We can see the latter half above in another posters response - the notion that because people can come up with a bajillion gods, gods can never be proven false.  People can come up with a bajillion answers to the question of 2+2, as well.  Doesn't affect the provability or falsifiability of a given answer.  If we can't know, it isn't on account of how many gods people can imagine - but theists and atheists alike have been bombarded with statements like that equally for all of our formative years.  It becomes an agreed upon fiction between people who, otherwise, might not agree on anything else god-related.

Quote:I'm not sure I've understood everything you've said correctly and so not sure if I've responded appropriately.

For instance here - I think you're saying that - in the absence of knowledge, people agree amongst themselves, to believe a thing in common.  ?? 

Anywho - thanks for the chat - good talk, maybe catch you in another thread (likely, but i can't know for sure??!!  even if it's your picture and username responding how would I know that it........... ;-)  JK
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RE: What God's justification for eternal torment?
We all deceive ourselves. We're the first and primary target of our own fiction. In this case, though, I'm not wondering whether you deceive yourself about a god, about theism. Rather, whether you have deceived yourself into believing that you can't know such and such until you die.

If we can refer to our experience in the alleged soul forge, and if we take our experience to be instructive, why couldn't we know things about the soul forge before we die? Isn't the soul forge proposition a claim about the reality we experience, in and of itself? For example, when I posited that the soul forge must be inefficient or slow - that's based on our experience in it. Presumably, it's been working on human beings for a quarter million years or so...and there have been alot of deaths in childhood and infancy, and..presumably, a great many people die having not learned whatever it is we imagine they ought to. You reckon that we're still somewhere near the beginning of it's run, for your part.

Alot of forging with no teachable moment or means, and no noticeable improvement in souls. By our experience, which is important to us and which we both take to be instructive, the soul forge isn't a great forge. Now..sure, sure, maybe we could be wrong about things we think we know - even when it comes to experience. That immediately presents another wrinkle. Why would that change when we die? People ask ghosts questions any number of ways but we seem to forget that those ghosts could easily be people we wouldn't have asked any question of in life. Asking Ogg the Village Idiot who died in 8k bc the meaning of everything is a fools errand, chasing other fools.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply



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