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The Moral Obligation to Choose the Lesser Evil
#51
RE: The Moral Obligation to Choose the Lesser Evil
(September 21, 2020 at 11:18 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: I do, sure....but that's because I work in the business of those necessary changes to my narrow interests and novel concerns.

Not an answer to exactly what I asked, but I'm happy to take your word for it. :-)
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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#52
RE: The Moral Obligation to Choose the Lesser Evil
(September 21, 2020 at 11:15 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: The center is better than fascism, and it's where the swing voters are. The presidential election can't be won by Democrats without them. It may not be ideal, but the Republicans have it worse: they can't win without the deplorables and so they've moved so far to the right that they're losing the center. You can't do anything in the government if you lose. I left the LP because the GOP is such a clear and present danger and only the Democrats have the numbers to have a chance of stopping them. I wish I had given up my 'voting for the lesser evil is still voting for evil' rhetoric sooner. There's never any choice but between greater and lesser evils when it comes to voting because no candidate is perfect, but you never have to take any blame for your candidate's actions if you don't pick one or your choice can't get elected. If you're not voting against the greater evil by voting for a lesser evil that can win, what are you doing to actually stop it or even slow it down?

That's one way to look at a representative government.  Another way is to insist that there actually be some choice that you're voting for instead of against.  Not a perfect candidate, just some candidate that does represent your interests.  I assume that biden is that candidate for a good number of dem or likely dem voters.  I'm happy that they have their candidate and I understand their vote on it's face and I expect that if the people for whom biden is that candidate....vote for biden....he'll win.  I think that would be great.

I don't think that there is a left, a center, and fascism..though.  I think that the american center is the center of american fascism.  The center of fascism is still fascism...and we're here discussing moral evils and obligations to the lessers of this and that.  I think it's relevant.  

I won't be voting for handsome joe - but I will continue to do what I have been doing.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#53
RE: The Moral Obligation to Choose the Lesser Evil
(September 20, 2020 at 9:54 am)Anomalocaris Wrote:


I'm not really obfuscating anything. I'm advocating FOR voting, I plan on voting. I was commenting that if your only "practical choice" is between the lesser of two evils then you can't deny culpability for contributing to the evils of society by choosing the lesser. You can't sugar coat it and say "Well it's not as bad as xxx" unless the benefits outweigh the evils. I was also commenting that as the candidates get worse and worse, maybe people will wake up to the fact there are actually more than 2 choices and that the lesser of two evils does not benefit society any more.

OFC, all this implies, that our choice matters, that people are empowered to change their created institutions from the bottom up, or thatthe pile of shit steamrolling downhill can actually be slowed.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post

always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
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#54
RE: The Moral Obligation to Choose the Lesser Evil
Can you outline the benefits that outweigh the evils of letting the greater evil gain office?
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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#55
RE: The Moral Obligation to Choose the Lesser Evil
Not sure if that was for me, but, no. I couldn't outline any moral benefits that would outweigh the moral evil of letting a greater evil gain office.

The failure of this argument to moral compulsion doesn't lie in any disparity between our moral precepts. It lies in the necessary conditions to moral obligation. We have no moral obligations to do what we are incapable of doing. I cannot put the greater evil in office, nor can I prevent the greater evil from gaining office.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#56
RE: The Moral Obligation to Choose the Lesser Evil
I was thinking tack, but I'm interested in your thoughts too.

Neither can I affect the outcome really, I don't live in a battleground state, SC is going to go for Trump no matter what I do (538 gives Biden a 12% chance in SC). I guess I've internalized the idea that I have a civic duty to vote.
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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#57
RE: The Moral Obligation to Choose the Lesser Evil
(September 22, 2020 at 9:21 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: Can you outline the benefits that outweigh the evils of letting the greater evil gain office?

I suppose I could outline benefits of one candidate that is the "more evil". That's not really my point though. My point was that all of the benefits for both "more evil" and "less evil" candidates don't have a net gain that outweighs the evil. If I were to vote for the "less evil" candidate without seeing a net benefit to society, I would be morally culpable in part for any of the evil that the "less evil" one does. I would also have the benefit of "at least I didn't go with the more evil one" which, in my equations don't amount to any point in favor. I could not morally choose the lesser evil unless that were the only choice. Notice I didn't say the only viable choice. Viability in a broken system where individual impact is negligible anyways is moot. It expresses an opinion publicly (as per your civic duty comment), and that opinion I would be held morally responsible for. All boils down to, "If it's true you should vote, then vote for someone/thing that produces the leas amount of cognitive dissonance within you." The lesser of two evils with an overall net loss of benefit to society doesn't sit well with my conscience and therefore creates more cognitive dissonance than other option.  I'm not afraid of voting for a less "viable" candidate, because I have 0 fear of splitting the vote because I know my vote doesn't really matter. I also have no desire to stop the "most evil" candidate from winning, because of the same reasons and a broken system.

As with the example earlier, If the only 2 viable options are mother's death with or without pain, I'd choose neither.  I'd choose neither because if I chose one I would be partly culpable for the mother's death, which is part of both choices. There are other options, albeit not feasible (faith healing, chemo, cryo, living, etc.), that would sit better with my morality than killing/accepting mother's death. It's reductionist and instinctive to reduce your choices to something binary, but I believe life is far too complex and valuable  to exclude options at that level of importance.  I have more complex choices with what I order from starbucks than the binary you try to limit your decisions to. It's understandable and necessary in instinctual critical situations, but I don't think it's well reasoned or rational in it's entirety for decisions that require no immediate action.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post

always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
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#58
RE: The Moral Obligation to Choose the Lesser Evil
(September 22, 2020 at 9:45 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: I was thinking tack, but I'm interested in your thoughts too.

Neither can I affect the outcome really, I don't live in a battleground state, SC is going to go for Trump no matter what I do (538 gives Biden a 12% chance in SC). I guess I've internalized the idea that I have a civic duty to vote.

Probably not the only thing you have a civic duty to do, and what of your civic duty when that vote is turned to theater? Do you have civic duties at all, at that point?

Can someone really drag you over the moral coals for failing to pretend as though the world were not as it is?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#59
RE: The Moral Obligation to Choose the Lesser Evil
"Viable choice" is just a short way of saying of resigning to present conditions. I don't remember anyone posting in this thread they think they were the only choice. There could be a number of ways an election could go, insofar you accept the present conditions of elections in a democracy. I can guarantee you that fascists do not care. Elections to them are just circumstances they want to play into their own favor, where power is insufficient.

From what I've seen of the fascists, they only 'respect' power. Ideology and convictions don't matter to them. Words don't matter to them.

What sentence would you use to communicate your ideas, to see stuff from your perspective, for someone that is only using language as an expression for their desires, as a stand-in for power?
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself — and you are the easiest person to fool." - Richard P. Feynman
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#60
RE: The Moral Obligation to Choose the Lesser Evil
@Sal communicating your ideas/perspectives to fascists only concerned with keeping or maintaining power does seem quite useless from your perspective. Signaling your perspective that r the improvement of present conditions are unacceptable would probably be the better use of your time/energy.

Looking at the bigger societal picture we humans do tend to create institutions that have, at their core a desire for self-sustainment. That desire, IMO, breed the kind of "maintain the status quo" and greed at any costs that we see ourselves in regularly. I think some anarchy is good, it reminds us that the methods need to change with the times. However, the intent/ideology/convictions at the core of those institutions should remain if it is valuable.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post

always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
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