Expanding The Supreme Court

[Anomalocaris]

Yes, the precedence is exactly the point.   Precedence for our side to always use the greatest Conceivable ruthlessness to a ruin and destroy the works of the forces that animates the Republican Party, and ruin their operatives and supporters 

The republicans are setting the  precedence for winner taking all.   So taking all, not just that to which we seem entitled, from the republicans must be our overriding goal in dealing with them if we are to have anything Left in the end.

The republicans brought guns and knives to every negotiating table.  You better not rely on preaching negotiating etiquette to them If you want to emerge alive from the “negotiation”.

If you don’t want a single party state, then the Republican Party must be destroyed.    You don’t let a malignant and aggressive cancer stay in you and hope to coach it to play nice for good health.

As Scipio Africanus would say "Factio Reublicanus delenda est!"

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Democrats like Joe Manchin, Kyrsten Sinema wouldn't support it.

Kick them out of the party.  Tell them they'll never get a penny in funding ever again and that the party will run hard against them every time they poke their heads out of the gutter for even one freaking second.

In other words, create a party whip and start using it.  It's inconceivable that backsliding idiots like Manchin or Sinema would last even a wet week within Irish party politics without getting a short, sharp and severe lesson in what being a party member is all about.

I believe that was Cato The elder,  not Scipio Africanus.    Scipio was an erudite, moderate and agreeable person who was also a military genius, and savior of his country.  Cato’s talent lies primarily in exhorting people to abuse their slaves. 

And the Republican Party today is far more like the overbearing Rome of Cato, determined to bring extinction to a long subdued and conciliatory Carthage, not the subdued Carthage that was almost limitlessly yielding except to the final exterminatory demand, but whose history still causes paranoid existential angst in the mind of the much more powerful Rome.

How much Carthage yielded to Rome and its cronies before the third Punic war, before it was still utterly destroyed and literally plowed into the ground and sown with salt By Rome,   should provide some illustrative example of what happens if one does not confront the likes of the american right wing of today.

Scipio Amilianus, the adoptive grandson of the afore mentioned Scipio Africanus and the actual executioner of Carthage in the war Cato instigated, reflected upon how Carthage fell and wept copiously for the day when  Rome will pay the price for her perfidy.   It seems difficult to imagine the henchmen of trump will be so introspective or humane.

[Rhizomorph13]

You are a person first, you believe that we should all be people first.  They are not, they do not.  Good luck with them, if that's the plan.  Their plan is to declare you an enemy of the state and disenfranchise you.  Even the phrasing is conditioned.  Who do you want to compromise with, again?  Does it make you more comfortable to call them republicans™?

LOL, good point, although I guess it seems batshit crazy to be as petty and lame just to act against people because they are being petty and lame. I guess if the analogy was that there is a pizza at a gathering and half the people there wanted to keep me from it I would need to act selfishly to get some of the pizza because trying to reason with people like that would just result in me talking a lot and going home hungry.

[The Grand Nudger]

Except it's not petty, or lame, or pizza. It's concentration camps and domestic terrorism. What part of their ideology would you like to see incorporated into your party in return for votes?

What do you hope to compromise over, and with what? I think that's the original sin of centrism. The notion that the right answer is in the middle of any two things, that compromise is good. What's halfway between the fundamentally centrist and corporatist democratic party, and trumpism?

[Rhizomorph13]

Except it's not petty, or lame, or pizza.  It's concentration camps and domestic terrorism.  What part of their ideology would you like to see incorporated into your party in return for votes?

What do you hope to compromise over, and with what?  I think that's the original sin of centrism.  The notion that the right answer is in the middle of any two things, that compromise is good.  What's halfway between the fundamentally centrist and corporatist democratic party, and trumpism?

Ok, here's a list from https://www.nhbr.com/traditional-republican-values/ :

• Freedom: The original and basic value. The party and its leaders have stood for freedom for people all over the world, and usually to welcoming them to America. The GOP traditionally has believed that individuals should be free from government interference in our lives.
  

•  Limited government: The GOP traditionally has stood for limitations on what the government can and should do. Government should not try to do everything or replace individual initiative to do for ourselves. It should leave most decisions on personal matters, like how we live, reproduce, love and worship, to individuals without government interference.
  

•  Government close to the people: Republicans traditionally have believed that if government has to do things, it should do them at the level closest to the people being governed, so those people will have maximum input and the ability to try different approaches, either at the local or state level.
  

• Strong national defense: The GOP has stood for strong defense and preparedness. It also has stood for cautious use of that power. Strong defense does not mean wasting money on weapons systems which provide jobs in some powerful congressman or senator’s district, but intelligent investment that provides a military which can deter others from dangerous actions.
  

• Quality public education: Most people forget that public education was a Republican idea in the 1800s, to provide a common understanding for citizens of all backgrounds, so they would have common values and preparation to be good citizens. Regardless of class or wealth, this is a system to bind us together and not split us apart.
  

• Limited taxes and balanced budgets: Goldwater says, “The size of the government’s rightful claim — that is, the total amount it may take in taxes — will be determined by how we define the ‘legitimate functions of government.’” Traditionally, Republicans have believed that taxes must be sufficient to pay for the things we together decide to do. This means balanced budgets, reduced national debt and prudent fiscal policies.
  

• Conserving the environment: President Theodore Roosevelt was among the original environmentalists, and Republicans supported conserving the environment as good business and good policy.
  

• Encouraging capitalism: Republicans traditionally have believed in policies and programs that encourage capitalism as the best method to create wealth, a higher standard of living, competition and individual and group success. However, they also have believed in sensible limits that keep capitalism fair and controlled. The original anti-trust acts were enforced by Republicans like Roosevelt to create more, not less, capitalistic activity. Minimizing governmental regulations controls have encouraged responsible business activity and a strong economy. Support of capitalism also has traditionally included support for free trade.
  

• Realistic foreign policy based on American leadership: Republicans traditionally have believed in facing the facts as they are and leading in the world because our belief in freedom and justice deserved respect based on how we acted. This has included proper alliances, forging common ground and moral, principled leadership.
  

I understand that not many of these values are manifest in our current GOP leaders but these values are still held by the people within the party or at least I would hope these are value they hold and they are just too mired in rhetoric to comprehend that their party train has gone off the rails.

[The Grand Nudger]

You want to incorporate their propaganda,..or? Do you think that if you were to include that propaganda (and which item does your party lack, btw?)...that trumpists will vote for a dem?

Does it concern you, at all..as a dem, that your response did the work of whitewashing what their party actually does stand for? You keep looking at this from your own point of view. They haven't gone off the rails from their point of view - this is them putting the train back on the rails. They're all in for trump because of the shit you think is horrid, not in spite of it.

[Rhizomorph13]

You want to incorporate their propaganda,..or?  Do you think that if you were to include that propaganda (and which item does your party lack, btw?)...that trumpists will vote for a dem?

The article was about a Republican named George F. Will who, during an interview, said, “To understand the Republican Party’s descent into a cult, and congressional Republicans’ loyalty-as-lobotomy, read Arthur Koestler’s novel of the Soviet Union in the 1930’s, ‘Darkness at Noon.’ Pay particular attention to Gletkin, the embodiment of the apparatchik mentality.”

I've not read the novel, but the guy espouses the values I posted. To me it is kind of like Muslims and how people are bigoted against them when most of them just want to live free with no agenda to highjack nations. All the ones I've met are pretty ok people, same with Republicans.

[The Grand Nudger]

Almost all of the people you meet anywhere, no matter what they're doing, are going to seem like pretty ok people. People who chop arms off all day long still live recognizably human lives and have recognizably human concerns and behaviors. Their neighbors like them and they're held in general well regard. Two kids, puppy, the whole bit.

Doesn't change anything about how they chop arms off all day.

If you're willing to compromise with fascists on account of how they seem like nice people, and because you've concern trolled yourself with left wing islamophobia adjacent worries - then you might not be the kind of person who should negotiate anything on anyone's behalf. Nor would a party like that, determined to do that, be any better or more qualified at the same.

They've told you what they are, believe them.

[HappySkeptic]

Ok, here's a list from https://www.nhbr.com/traditional-republican-values/ :

• Freedom: The original and basic value. The party and its leaders have stood for freedom for people all over the world, and usually to welcoming them to America. The GOP traditionally has believed that individuals should be free from government interference in our lives.
  

•  Limited government: The GOP traditionally has stood for limitations on what the government can and should do. Government should not try to do everything or replace individual initiative to do for ourselves. It should leave most decisions on personal matters, like how we live, reproduce, love and worship, to individuals without government interference.
  

•  Government close to the people: Republicans traditionally have believed that if government has to do things, it should do them at the level closest to the people being governed, so those people will have maximum input and the ability to try different approaches, either at the local or state level.
  

• Strong national defense: The GOP has stood for strong defense and preparedness. It also has stood for cautious use of that power. Strong defense does not mean wasting money on weapons systems which provide jobs in some powerful congressman or senator’s district, but intelligent investment that provides a military which can deter others from dangerous actions.
  

• Quality public education: Most people forget that public education was a Republican idea in the 1800s, to provide a common understanding for citizens of all backgrounds, so they would have common values and preparation to be good citizens. Regardless of class or wealth, this is a system to bind us together and not split us apart.
  

• Limited taxes and balanced budgets: Goldwater says, “The size of the government’s rightful claim — that is, the total amount it may take in taxes — will be determined by how we define the ‘legitimate functions of government.’” Traditionally, Republicans have believed that taxes must be sufficient to pay for the things we together decide to do. This means balanced budgets, reduced national debt and prudent fiscal policies.
  

• Conserving the environment: President Theodore Roosevelt was among the original environmentalists, and Republicans supported conserving the environment as good business and good policy.
  

• Encouraging capitalism: Republicans traditionally have believed in policies and programs that encourage capitalism as the best method to create wealth, a higher standard of living, competition and individual and group success. However, they also have believed in sensible limits that keep capitalism fair and controlled. The original anti-trust acts were enforced by Republicans like Roosevelt to create more, not less, capitalistic activity. Minimizing governmental regulations controls have encouraged responsible business activity and a strong economy. Support of capitalism also has traditionally included support for free trade.
  

• Realistic foreign policy based on American leadership: Republicans traditionally have believed in facing the facts as they are and leading in the world because our belief in freedom and justice deserved respect based on how we acted. This has included proper alliances, forging common ground and moral, principled leadership.
  

I understand that not many of these values are manifest in our current GOP leaders but these values are still held by the people within the party or at least I would hope these are value they hold and they are just too mired in rhetoric to comprehend that their party train has gone off the rails.

Those "values" are mostly held by moderates in both parties.  The problem is that being moderate doesn't win elections any more.  You have to appeal to a base.  The moderate elector is now a mythical beast.  Thanks Facebook, Twitter, Fox News (and to a lesser extent other 24-hour news), and the biggest troll of all - Donald J. Trump.

[Rhizomorph13]

Yeah, I think the vales are pretty high level shit that is somewhat obvious although both parties have different strategies. The big difference that I see in the list is limited government and freedom. I do not think that these are part of the democratic party. I think their version of freedom would be equanimity through controlling undesirable discourse. The Democratic party wants a huge government that would be necessary to mete out socialized healthcare as well as all the other safety net programs that I also think are necessary as well as provide meaningful work for those that have been displaced by automation and eventually AI. Those Silicon Natives are at it again!

[The Grand Nudger]

That doesn't sound like an accurate representation of any difference between the parties in mere reality, to me, though it's spot on for rightwing hyperbole.

They're about to limit some government straight up a uterus, and the political grift train keeps growing and getting longer. Both parties believe in power, both parties believe in a government as big as it takes to enact their policy. Just ask homeland security.