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What will win the god wars? Faith, Fantasy, Facts, or God?
#31
RE: What will win the god wars? Faith, Fantasy, Facts, or God?
(December 9, 2020 at 1:37 pm)Greatest I am Wrote:



If atheist are going to rely on hope, all I can say is the old adage that for evil to grow, all good people need do is sit back and hope for change.

I try to push atheists to be more active and even militant against the religions that persecuted you guys for so many years.




I've been persecuted for being Irish - which I am - and Catholic - which I'm not (or at least only nominally), but never for being an atheist. Should I be more militant against non-Irish, non-Catholics for that persecution? If so, those Presbyterians in Madagascar are in for it.

Seriously, though, what form do you think militancy against religions should take?


Boru
‘Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.’ Ralph Waldo Emerson
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#32
RE: What will win the god wars? Faith, Fantasy, Facts, or God?
(December 9, 2020 at 3:25 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Of course Christianity is moral. 

I see that your morals have been corrupted.

Regards
DL
Reply
#33
RE: What will win the god wars? Faith, Fantasy, Facts, or God?
No, no no no. Acknowledging that christianity is a moral claim is not the same thing as agreeing with that christan moral claim.

A guy walks up to you and says "Skullfucking my neighbor is the right thing to do-because". You may not agree with him...that skullfucking his neighbor is right, or that if skullfucking his neighbor could be right his because™ works. Still, you can agree that he's made a moral claim. An assertion about what is right or good.

You can, ofc, insist that his moral claim is wrong. That (if true) would make it an inaccurate moral claim, but not...not...a moral claim. Just as five is a wrong answer to two and two..but it's still an answer.

Get it?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#34
RE: What will win the god wars? Faith, Fantasy, Facts, or God?
(December 10, 2020 at 11:44 am)Greatest I am Wrote:
(December 9, 2020 at 3:25 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Of course Christianity is moral. 

I see that your morals have been corrupted.

Regards
DL

What TGN said.  Christianity is moral because Christian morality exists.  It doesn't mean I have to agree with Christian morality, or approve of it, or even take a live-and-let-live approach. You cannot say that my morals have been corrupted because you don't know why my morals are.

What you're doing is attempting to use your own morality as a universal standard, and it doesn't work that way.

Boru
‘Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.’ Ralph Waldo Emerson
Reply
#35
RE: What will win the god wars? Faith, Fantasy, Facts, or God?
(December 10, 2020 at 12:18 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: No, no no no.  Acknowledging that christianity is a moral claim is not the same thing as agreeing with that christan moral claim.

A guy walks up to you and says "Skullfucking my neighbor is the right thing to do-because".  You may not agree with him...that skullfucking his neighbor is right, or that if skullfucking his neighbor could be right his because™ works.  Still, you can agree that he's made a moral claim.  An assertion about what is right or good.

You can, ofc, insist that his moral claim is wrong.  That (if true) would make it an inaccurate moral claim, but not...not...a moral claim.  Just as five is a wrong answer to two and two..but it's still an answer.

Get it?

Of course Christianity is moral. 

That was the wording.

My reply disagreed. That is an opinion which acknowledges and disagrees with the opinion that Christianity is moral.

Christianity and other god religions claim to be moral, and that is what I disagree with.

Regards
DL
Reply
#36
RE: What will win the god wars? Faith, Fantasy, Facts, or God?
-and to smooth rough edges. It may, in fact, work that way. If there are right and/or wrong answers to moral questions it's conceivable that a given individuals moral standards are universal. Universally normative, mind, not universally descriptive. What is and what should be. What we do and what we should do. This is precisely the contention made in the case of a god.

Gods decisions and acts and nature are universally normative...even if those acts and those decisions and that nature are not universally descriptive. The great tragedy, as far as christianity is concerned, is the gulf of difference between what is, and what a christian asserts should be. Acknowledging that poverty exists, that your brother is hungry, and insisting that it should not, and he should not be.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#37
RE: What will win the god wars? Faith, Fantasy, Facts, or God?
(December 10, 2020 at 12:34 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:
(December 10, 2020 at 11:44 am)Greatest I am Wrote: I see that your morals have been corrupted.

Regards
DL

What TGN said.  Christianity is moral because Christian morality exists.  It doesn't mean I have to agree with Christian morality, or approve of it, or even take a live-and-let-live approach. You cannot say that my morals have been corrupted because you don't know why my morals are.

What you're doing is attempting to use your own morality as a universal standard, and it doesn't work that way.

Boru

I can indeed judge you as thinking in an immoral way when saying that a genocidal god worshiping homophobic and misogynous religion is moral.

If your morality does not agree, it is corrupted.

Regards
DL
Reply
#38
RE: What will win the god wars? Faith, Fantasy, Facts, or God?
(December 10, 2020 at 12:47 pm)Greatest I am Wrote:
(December 10, 2020 at 12:34 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: What TGN said.  Christianity is moral because Christian morality exists.  It doesn't mean I have to agree with Christian morality, or approve of it, or even take a live-and-let-live approach. You cannot say that my morals have been corrupted because you don't know why my morals are.

What you're doing is attempting to use your own morality as a universal standard, and it doesn't work that way.

Boru

I can indeed judge you as thinking in an immoral way when saying that a genocidal god worshiping homophobic and misogynous religion is moral.

If your morality does not agree, it is corrupted.

Regards
DL

What you’re doing is judging me by your own moral standards (which is fine, as far as it goes), but the clear implication is that you believe your own moral standards are absolutes. That’s a position you can’t possibly justify. 

For what it’s worth, I find homophobia and misogyny abhorrent, but that doesn’t mean that, within the bounds of traditional Christianity, they are immoral. I can disagree with them while recognizing that they are moral claims.

Boru
‘Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.’ Ralph Waldo Emerson
Reply
#39
RE: What will win the god wars? Faith, Fantasy, Facts, or God?
(December 10, 2020 at 12:45 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: -and to smooth rough edges.  It may, in fact, work that way.  If there are right and/or wrong answers to moral questions it's conceivable that a given individuals moral standards are universal.  Universally normative, mind, not universally descriptive.   What is and what should be.  What we do and what we should do.  This is precisely the contention made in the case of a god.

Gods decisions and acts and nature are universally normative...even if those acts and those decisions and that nature are not universally descriptive.  The great tragedy, as far as christianity is concerned, is the gulf of difference between what is, and what a christian asserts should be.

I agree.

Unfortunately, it is people who speak for the absentee un-proven god.

Religions are basically created to appease our insecurity and tribal needs, a demand by our selfish gene. Be it king or god leading that tribe, our instincts is to kiss his ass as we should all be driven to be the fittest and should all want to replace him or her as the fittest.
 
Sheeple are people who are acknowledging that they are rank and file and not the fittest who are still striving to lead.

You and I are still striving. More should do the same.

Regards
DL
Reply
#40
RE: What will win the god wars? Faith, Fantasy, Facts, or God?
Acknowledging that christianity is a moral claim does not provide any detail of a persons own moral claims.

They are reporting a fact, what is. Not a moral claim - what should be, or that christians have their should-be's right.

Ultimately, it doesn't actually matter whether christians are a mouthpiece for an absentee or unproven god. Their claims as to what should be will fall or stand regardless of whether their god exists. I'm not striving for shit. This isn't hard for me. I refuse to kill the better man, and I do not accept payment in blood. End of.

Religions are created because large groups of people share beliefs in how things should be, and their efforts to that end are better organized and more effective under a singular over-arching schema in which they all communally participate. Many hands makes light work.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply



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