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What will win the god wars? Faith, Fantasy, Facts, or God?
#91
RE: What will win the god wars? Faith, Fantasy, Facts, or God?
(December 16, 2020 at 1:22 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:
(December 16, 2020 at 12:50 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: Indeed.

The mindset of the inquisitors was such that atheists were just another bunch that had to die if they did not kowtow to the desired Christianity.

My way or die would have been their battle cry.

Regards
DL

That’s absolutely untrue. Atheists were far more likely to be killed by secular authorities than by any ecclesiastical institution. The inquisitions went after heretics, not apostates.

Boru

They went after whoever was not accepting Christianity as their religion.

Gnostic Christians were targeted, and they, Christians, were not apostates or heretics.

They just did not want to pay some regime or religion that ran a corrupt church of murderers.

 When religion and the state are as close as Christianity was back when to the government, I can agree that atheists were more likely to be killed by secular authorities. Those were controlled by or in cooperation with the states religion.

Did Christian kill for Constantine of god. IDK, as they were connected at the hip.

Regards
DL
Reply
#92
RE: What will win the god wars? Faith, Fantasy, Facts, or God?
The inquisitors themselves went after money. Whatever it was intended to be, it turned into an asset seizure racket pretty quick.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#93
RE: What will win the god wars? Faith, Fantasy, Facts, or God?
(December 16, 2020 at 1:41 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: The inquisitors themselves went after money.  Whatever it was intended to be, it turned into an asset seizure racket pretty quick.

For sure.

Have you seen the long list of laws Constantine and the next Emperor put in to move wealth from non-Christians to Christians?

I have it somewhere if required. 

I see it as legislated institutionalized theft.

Good old Christianity. A cult of thieves and murderers.

Regards
DL
Reply
#94
RE: What will win the god wars? Faith, Fantasy, Facts, or God?
(December 16, 2020 at 2:09 pm)Greatest I am Wrote:
(December 16, 2020 at 1:41 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: The inquisitors themselves went after money.  Whatever it was intended to be, it turned into an asset seizure racket pretty quick.

For sure.

Have you seen the long list of laws Constantine and the next Emperor put in to move wealth from non-Christians to Christians?

I have it somewhere if required. 

I see it as legislated institutionalized theft.

Good old Christianity. A cult of thieves and murderers.

Regards
DL

What’s that got to do with the inquisitions?

I’m unfamiliar with the laws you mention. Do you have a link?

Boru
‘Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.’ Ralph Waldo Emerson
Reply
#95
RE: What will win the god wars? Faith, Fantasy, Facts, or God?
Tax exemptions. Nothing to do with the inquisitions and nothing to do with the religion of christianity, either. It was payback to targeted individuals for their political support. Christian demagogery provided a useful alternative to the imperial cult and pagan state, particularly in that the imperial cult and pagan state had been grinding through emperors for some time.

Thirty years after that wave of christianization had peaked and then sputtered, their children would be the thorn in julian apostate's side, he being the last pagan emperor who had very much nailed christianity to it's own cross. Had he not been killed in battle, there would likely be no christianity as we know it today.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#96
RE: What will win the god wars? Faith, Fantasy, Facts, or God?
(December 16, 2020 at 3:21 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Tax exemptions.  Nothing to do with the inquisitions and nothing to do with the religion of christianity, either.  It was payback to targeted individuals for their political support.

Oh, those. Yeah, I’m aware.

Boru
‘Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.’ Ralph Waldo Emerson
Reply
#97
RE: What will win the god wars? Faith, Fantasy, Facts, or God?
(December 16, 2020 at 2:46 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:
(December 16, 2020 at 2:09 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: For sure.

Have you seen the long list of laws Constantine and the next Emperor put in to move wealth from non-Christians to Christians?

I have it somewhere if required. 

I see it as legislated institutionalized theft.

Good old Christianity. A cult of thieves and murderers.

Regards
DL

What’s that got to do with the inquisitions?

I’m unfamiliar with the laws you mention. Do you have a link?

Boru

Here is what I Have.

Constantine’s laws against free thought and why Christianity became the Western religion.
 
Here is some history. It's a list of Roman laws starting around Constantine’s time and extending forward from there.
 
I'll bold and underline the killers for those with limited time.
 
Quote:
 
http://www.fourthcentury.com/index.php/i...-laws-364/
 
313CE Oct 31
 
Certain catholic clerics are being harassed by heretics so that compulsory public services are too much for them to bear. They should be relieved of their civic duties, and replacements found, and in the future, clerics should not be forced to fulfill compulsory public services.
 
318CE June 23
 
Constantine gives Christians the right to take their cases before an ecclesiastical court rather than a secular court. The ruling of those bishops will carry the same authority as a secular court.
 
325CE
 
Constantine exhorts the Alexandrians to follow the Nicene faith, which he praises, and to disavow Arius, whom he condemns. The council is to be regarded as the will of God.
 
326CE Sept 1
 
Exemption from compulsory public services shall only be granted to clergy of the Catholic Church, and not to heretics or schismatics.
 
327CE
 
Constantine invites Arius to his court, where he may end his exile by confessing the Nicene faith before Constantine. Arius is allowed to use public transportation.
 
333 or 327CE
 
Constantine orders that Arians now be referred to as Porphyrians, that all works of Arius or Arians be burned, and that anyone hiding a work of Arius suffer capital punishment.
 
Constantine sends a long, belittling letter to Arius and his followers. At the end, he threatens to heavily fine the Arians and force them to accept compulsory public services unless they immediately return to the catholic faith. If Arius returns, he promises to be lenient.
 
341CE
 
Pagan superstition and sacrifices are completely forbidden, in accord with the law set forth by Constantine.
 
346CE Dec 1
 
Pagan temples are to be closed; access to them is denied, and violators face capital punishment.
The property of a violator will be given to the state treasury. Governors who fail to carry out this
punishment will be punished.
 
347CE
 
The Donatists were ordered to be reconciled with the Catholic Church in North Africa. Those who refused were to be exiled or killed.
 
352 July 3
 
Persons who join Judaism from Christianity, if the accusation can be proven, shall have their property confiscated and given to the state treasury.
 
353 Nov 23
 
Night-time pagan sacrifices, which had briefly been allowed under the usurper Magnentius, are again forbidden.
 
356 Feb 20
 
Those guilty of idolatry or pagan sacrifices must suffer capital punishment.
 
362
 
Julian castigates the pagan Alexandrians, who had murdered Athanasius’ rival archbishop George when he ruined the temple of the local god Serapis. They should not have broken the law, but should have taken out their grievances legally.
 
No Christians are allowed to teach the pagan classics (essentially debarring them from being teachers).
Any student may study them, however.
 
370CE Feb 17
 
Laws formerly enacted against Christians under Julian shall have no validity, and policies of the late Constantius are to be upheld.
 
372CE Mar 2
 
Manichaeans and similar groups may not assemble. Their teachers will be punished, their followers segregated, and their places of gathering confiscated.
 
377CE Oct 17
 
Any who teaches a second baptism is to desist and be restored to the Catholic Church. The uncorrupted faith of the Evangelists and Apostles must be preserved. Furthermore, properties where re-baptizers or other expelled persons gather are to be confiscated.
 
379 Aug 3
 
All heresies are forbidden. One may hold to heretical teachings in his own mind but is forbidden to teach them to others, especially the teaching of re-baptism. Assemblies of those who hold to
re-baptism are forbidden, and none may teach this doctrine.
 
380CE Feb 28
 
This edict is sometimes referred to as “Cunctos Populos.” Everyone in the empire shall be part of the religion that believes in God as a single Deity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit – the Holy Trinity, as taught by St. Peter to the Romans, and now taught by Damasus of Rome and Peter of Alexandria. Only those following this rule shall be called “Catholic Christians.”
 
Meeting places of those who follow another religion (including heretics of a Christian variety) shall not be given the status of churches, and such people may be subject to both divine and earthly retribution.
 
381 Jan 10
 
Heretics shall have no place of meeting. Heretics are defined as those who do not observe the Nicene faith.
The Phontinians, Arians, Eunomians and others are specified, but not exclusively. Their teachings are forbidden.
A definition of the Trinity and the term ousia is established. Catholic churches throughout the empire are to be returned to orthodox bishops. Heretics are to be driven out of the churches and the cities.
The property rights of Manichaeans are revoked, and property inherited from a Manichaean which should have been confiscated by the state is now to be confiscated. Manichaeans are forbidden to gather.
 
381 May
 
Christians who have converted to paganism shall not be allowed to make a will, and any will made by such a person is invalidated.
 
Manichaeans may not inherit property or leave it to others through wills, and any property inherited from a Manichaean is to be confiscated. The only exception is the child of a Manichaean who converts to the Catholic faith. Also, Manichaean assemblies and sacraments are prohibited.
 
381 July
 
It is forbidden for Arians, Eunomians, or followers of Aetius to build churches.
If any such churches are built, they will be confiscated.
 
391CE
 
Persons with inherited rank or status who abandon Christianity shall lose their position and be branded with infamy.
 
Heretics are to be driven from cities, villages, and communities. They are not able to hold public meetings or secret gatherings.
 
so on and so forth... the jackboot is in.
 
Regards
DL
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Jesus_Mysteries
  
Quote: 
According to The Jesus Mysteries, Christianity originated as a Judaized version of the pagan mystery religions. Hellenized Jews wrote a version of the godman myth incorporating Jewish elements. Initiates learned the myth and its allegorical meanings through the Outer and Inner Mysteries. (A similar pattern of "Lesser" and "Greater" Mysteries was part of the pagan Eleusinian Mysteries.Mithraism was structured around seven serial initiations.) Freke and Gandy suggest that, at some point, groups of Christians who had only experienced the Outer Mysteries were split off from the elders of the religion and forgot that there had ever been a second initiation, and that, later, when they encountered groups who had retained the Inner Mysteries, these "Literalist Christians" [as Freke and Gandy call them] attacked the "Gnostics" for claiming that what the Literalists considered false knowledge and false initiations, was, in fact, the original second initiation of primal (Gnostic) Christianity. Freke and Gandy claim that the Literalists won out when the emperor Constantine saw the political merit of 'one empire, one emperor, one god', practically exterminated the Gnostics, and saw to it that 'Literalist Christianity' became the officially-approved Roman Catholic Church and its modern descendants.

(December 16, 2020 at 3:22 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:
(December 16, 2020 at 3:21 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Tax exemptions.  Nothing to do with the inquisitions and nothing to do with the religion of christianity, either.  It was payback to targeted individuals for their political support.

Oh, those. Yeah, I’m aware.

Boru

Read that list of laws above that Constantine put and see how he used taxes and other such laws to give Christians the advantage.

Regards
DL
Reply
#98
RE: What will win the god wars? Faith, Fantasy, Facts, or God?
There would be about ten more emperors between Constantine and the last pagan emperor of the world, Julian. It was a rough period of time. So, some context and an important correction. First, the correction. Gnostics did not invent christianity, they themselves were a split off group of proto-christians.

Now, context. It was often the case during the three to four hundred years it took for something resembling modern chrstianity to shape for one wave of christianization to have little in common with the next (or the one which had preceded it). The gnostic sect was part of the romanizing wave (which was the third, at least), and had very clearly been responsible for turning what would have otherwise been one set of heathen superstitions among thousands under the roman umbrella into a franchised ideology of state. The trouble was that the people who benefitted most from this, who would become instrumental in the next wave, had no further use for them or their specific ideology, though they quite liked the literary tradition that they'd constructed and the recruitment strategy that had coalesced under their apogee.

-and so it was as it has ever been. One group of christians consuming another. It's a predatory belief system, as julian noted on paganisms way out the door. That's always been it's greatest strength, even if it generates a bunch of heat and criticism.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#99
RE: What will win the god wars? Faith, Fantasy, Facts, or God?
(December 25, 2020 at 7:14 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: There would be about ten more emperors between Constantine and the last pagan emperor of the world, Julian.  It was a rough period of time.  So, some context and an important correction.  First, the correction.  Gnostics did not invent christianity, they themselves were a split off group of proto-christians.  

Now, context.  It was often the case during the three to four hundred years it took for something resembling modern chrstianity to shape for one wave of christianization to have little in common with the next (or the one which had preceded it).  The gnostic sect was part of the romanizing wave (which was the third, at least), and had very clearly been responsible for turning what would have otherwise been one set of heathen superstitions among thousands under the roman umbrella into a franchised ideology of state.  The trouble was that the people who benefitted most from this, who would become instrumental in the next wave, had no further use for them or their specific ideology, though they quite liked the literary tradition that they'd constructed and the recruitment strategy that had coalesced under their apogee.

-and so it was as it has ever been.  One group of christians consuming another.  It's a predatory belief system, as julian noted on paganisms way out the door.  That's always been it's greatest strength, even if it generates a bunch of heat and criticism.

Consuming each other. No. 

More like trying to murder each other.

If they had not stopped that infighting to fight the Muslims, the West would have lost all of Europe.

As to ancient history, I think we owe Christianity to the Greeks and Chrestianity.

I have yet to prove this, but little of ancient history is provable. Especially when the inquisitors wrote the history.

Regards
DL
Reply



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