Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: May 27, 2022, 3:11 pm

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Why does god put the needs of the few above the need of the many?
#21
RE: Why does god put the needs of the few above the need of the many?
(December 23, 2020 at 11:12 am)Greatest I am Wrote: It is demonstrable that nature creates for the best possible end.
How is this demonstrable? It isn't self-evident to me.

Who determines what "the best possible end" is?

Since everything created in nature dies or corrodes in the end, and everything and everyone we know and love will cease to exist, I'm finding it hard to understand your claim here.
Reply
#22
RE: Why does god put the needs of the few above the need of the many?
(December 23, 2020 at 4:51 pm)brewer Wrote: God's an authoritarian capitalist, always has been. Read your bible!

All god religions are fascist regimes, as evidenced with the Vatican Bank helping Hitler and other fascist regimes during and after the war by helping the brass escape. Not to mention their participation in death camps. And they all seem to dislike Jews, even as Jesus was just that.

Perhaps that is why Christians do not walk their talk.

Regards
DL

(December 23, 2020 at 10:13 pm)Grandizer Wrote: So Yahweh is horrible and all that. And? I fail to see how the Gnostic God is any better.

This shows that you do not know too much about modern Gnostic Christianity.

For one benefit, we call evil evil, while Christians call evil good.

If you do not see that as superior thinking, even as you show that quality, what can I say?

Regards
DL

(December 23, 2020 at 10:42 pm)Belacqua Wrote:
(December 23, 2020 at 11:12 am)Greatest I am Wrote: It is demonstrable that nature creates for the best possible end.
How is this demonstrable? It isn't self-evident to me.

Who determines what "the best possible end" is?

Since everything created in nature dies or corrodes in the end, and everything and everyone we know and love will cease to exist, I'm finding it hard to understand your claim here.

It gets complicated and I am a poor communicator. 

Gnostic Christian try to see the macro as well as the micro when looking for proofs of logical concepts, as well as illogical ones.

It is self evident that nature creates for the best possible end, because this, here and now, is the best possible end, because it is the only possible end, given our history, the anthropic principle and entropy.

That thinking is why Gnostic Christian Jesus taught that heaven was here and now but that most people could not see it. I can.

That does not negate that both of us would improve this world real quick if given the chance.

We are created for our best possible end, by nature, is proofed by your own life driven desire to reproduce entities that will also pass on this life giving trait.

Ceasing to exist is not possible scientifically, but I take it you meant our subconscious dies.

It may. And that puts you back to where you were originally, if there is such a place of origin for a conscious life force.

Fear not. It is a waste of time.

Regards
DL
Reply
#23
RE: Why does god put the needs of the few above the need of the many?
(December 24, 2020 at 2:23 pm)Greatest I am Wrote:
(December 23, 2020 at 10:13 pm)Grandizer Wrote: So Yahweh is horrible and all that. And? I fail to see how the Gnostic God is any better.

This shows that you do not know too much about modern Gnostic Christianity.

For one benefit, we call evil evil, while Christians call evil good.

If you do not see that as superior thinking, even as you show that quality, what can I say?

Regards
DL

Does the god you believe in grant salvific knowledge to everyone? Or just a select group?

Do you also acknowledge that there are Christians out there who are universalists (i.e., believe everyone is saved through the death of Jesus, no exceptions)?
Reply
#24
RE: Why does god put the needs of the few above the need of the many?
(December 24, 2020 at 2:23 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: That thinking is why Gnostic Christian Jesus taught that heaven was here and now but that most people could not see it. I can.

Yes, I think it's standard for Gnostic and esoteric Christians to hold that God is not separate from our own time and place, and that if we fail to see this, it's a problem of our perception. 

So it's interesting to me that you say you can see it. 

When we read accounts of spiritual vision, from Plotinus to the Irish poet A.E., it seems that anyone experiencing God directly will be overwhelmed, at least temporarily. Writing about one's experience during the experience is not possible. Nonetheless people can relate what it felt like to them, after the fact. The description will necessarily be partial and probably symbolic, and probably make use of the ineffability topos, but can still be worth reading. 

When you say that you can see that heaven is here and now, is this the type of experience you are talking about? Or is this a constant perception you have, like proprioception? 

Obviously the mere understanding of the fact that heaven is here and now is not the same as seeing it. No doubt many people accept the truth of the proposition without having the vision. 

My main question here is how that vision changes a person. Plato, of course, thought that after someone had had the direct view, he should return to the cave -- giving up direct vision -- because he would make the best leader. And this implies that someone who has Gnosis will be a better sort of human being. This makes me wonder what a better sort of human being would be like. 

My guess is that if a person had a vision of truth, and kept some effects from it, he or she would be a number of things. I'm guessing:

kind,
patient,
calm, 
forgiving of others' foibles,
clear in one's explanations, as far as language allows

The other way of imagining superior people, who are in touch with higher Gnosis, would be something like the model of the Taoist immortal. Such people are generally thought to have transcended to the point where normal human concerns would be of no interest. The kind of discussion we have on this forum would be of absolutely no interest to such a person, and we could be sure that anyone demanding to be taken seriously as an immortal wouldn't be one.

So I'm curious as to how, in your view, your vision of heaven as imminently present in the world has changed your character. Do you feel it has lifted you above normal human tendencies to fly off the handle? Has it made you exceptionally good at leading?
Reply
#25
RE: Why does god put the needs of the few above the need of the many?
(December 24, 2020 at 5:19 pm)Grandizer Wrote:
(December 24, 2020 at 2:23 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: This shows that you do not know too much about modern Gnostic Christianity.

For one benefit, we call evil evil, while Christians call evil good.

If you do not see that as superior thinking, even as you show that quality, what can I say?

Regards
DL

Does the god you believe in grant salvific knowledge to everyone? Or just a select group?

Do you also acknowledge that there are Christians out there who are universalists (i.e., believe everyone is saved through the death of Jesus, no exceptions)?

To your first. 
All that is required is to seek. Those who d and find will be rewarded. We do not believe in anything salvific as we do not see a god ever condemning us in the first place. The only thing we see ourselves needing saving from is poor thinking and only better thinking can save one from poor thinking. 

To your last.
I believe that there are such Christian creed in the what, 3,000 different denominations. 

I admit I am not informed on all of them all over the world. That belief shows those who would ride a scapegoat into heaven and follow the apostles creed. 

They do not recognize the immorality of their vile, punish the innocent instead of the guilty theology.

They conveniently believe their lying preachers.

Regards
DL

(December 25, 2020 at 12:36 am)Belacqua Wrote:
(December 24, 2020 at 2:23 pm)Greatest I am Wrote: That thinking is why Gnostic Christian Jesus taught that heaven was here and now but that most people could not see it. I can.

Yes, I think it's standard for Gnostic and esoteric Christians to hold that God is not separate from our own time and place, and that if we fail to see this, it's a problem of our perception. 

So it's interesting to me that you say you can see it. 

When we read accounts of spiritual vision, from Plotinus to the Irish poet A.E., it seems that anyone experiencing God directly will be overwhelmed, at least temporarily. Writing about one's experience during the experience is not possible. Nonetheless people can relate what it felt like to them, after the fact. The description will necessarily be partial and probably symbolic, and probably make use of the ineffability topos, but can still be worth reading. 

When you say that you can see that heaven is here and now, is this the type of experience you are talking about? Or is this a constant perception you have, like proprioception? 

Obviously the mere understanding of the fact that heaven is here and now is not the same as seeing it. No doubt many people accept the truth of the proposition without having the vision. 

My main question here is how that vision changes a person. Plato, of course, thought that after someone had had the direct view, he should return to the cave -- giving up direct vision -- because he would make the best leader. And this implies that someone who has Gnosis will be a better sort of human being. This makes me wonder what a better sort of human being would be like. 

My guess is that if a person had a vision of truth, and kept some effects from it, he or she would be a number of things. I'm guessing:

kind,
patient,
calm, 
forgiving of others' foibles,
clear in one's explanations, as far as language allows

The other way of imagining superior people, who are in touch with higher Gnosis, would be something like the model of the Taoist immortal. Such people are generally thought to have transcended to the point where normal human concerns would be of no interest. The kind of discussion we have on this forum would be of absolutely no interest to such a person, and we could be sure that anyone demanding to be taken seriously as an immortal wouldn't be one.

So I'm curious as to how, in your view, your vision of heaven as imminently present in the world has changed your character. Do you feel it has lifted you above normal human tendencies to fly off the handle? Has it made you exceptionally good at leading?

Seeing reality's evolving perfection is an intellectual/scientific position. I do not think those adjectives/qualities you put apply to science.

The knowledge/Gnosis did indeed change me, information wise, but not my basic character. 

How can I say this. If you walk in the dull light, you still continue with the same walk if I turn up the lights. You just see better and little details are seen that would have been missed without Gnosis.

Regards
DL
Reply
#26
RE: Why does god put the needs of the few above the need of the many?
(December 28, 2020 at 11:39 am)Greatest I am Wrote: The knowledge/Gnosis did indeed change me, information wise, but not my basic character. 

Mores the pity.
[Image: Fenrir-sign.jpg]
Reply
#27
RE: Why does god put the needs of the few above the need of the many?
(December 28, 2020 at 12:51 pm)Angrboda Wrote:
(December 28, 2020 at 11:39 am)Greatest I am Wrote: The knowledge/Gnosis did indeed change me, information wise, but not my basic character. 

Mores the pity.

So say the shit who just post gratuitous insults.


Regards
DL
Reply
#28
RE: Why does god put the needs of the few above the need of the many?
(December 28, 2020 at 1:41 pm)Greatest I am Wrote:
(December 28, 2020 at 12:51 pm)Angrboda Wrote: Mores the pity.

So say the shit who just post gratuitous insults.


Regards
DL

Wages earned are not gratuitous.
[Image: Fenrir-sign.jpg]
Reply
#29
RE: Why does god put the needs of the few above the need of the many?
(December 24, 2020 at 2:23 pm)Greatest I am Wrote:
(December 23, 2020 at 10:42 pm)Belacqua Wrote: How is this demonstrable? It isn't self-evident to me.

Who determines what "the best possible end" is?

Since everything created in nature dies or corrodes in the end, and everything and everyone we know and love will cease to exist, I'm finding it hard to understand your claim here.

It is self evident that nature creates for the best possible end, because this, here and now, is the best possible end, because it is the only possible end, given our history, the anthropic principle and entropy.

This appears to be argument by definition, and not a particularly good definition at that. Kindly demonstrate that this is the best possible end and the only end.

[Image: 800px-Aleiodes_indiscretus_wasp_parasiti...pillar.jpg]
Reply
#30
RE: Why does god put the needs of the few above the need of the many?
I think you're asking the same question Bel did - but it carries silent baggage. The assertion that death is an imperfection.

(fun stuff, if that were the only end it would be the best possible end by default - it's a short list of one at that point)

As to the item in question, I don't think that it's all that difficult to float the idea that what we have is as good as it gets, and that nature is the agent behind all of it.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  The Devil just needs a character rewrite Nachos_of_Nurgle 16 413 February 16, 2022 at 12:47 am
Last Post: Paleophyte
  Did Moses really write the first few books of the bible? T.J. 30 637 November 19, 2021 at 10:39 pm
Last Post: Brian37
  Who the Hell does God think he is?? Drich 13 954 March 6, 2020 at 12:15 pm
Last Post: Gawdzilla Sama
  Genesis interpretations - how many are there? Fake Messiah 129 11500 January 22, 2019 at 7:33 pm
Last Post: donlor
  My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? vorlon13 92 5723 July 23, 2018 at 8:20 am
Last Post: SteveII
  Why, God? Why?! LadyForCamus 233 22014 June 5, 2018 at 12:57 pm
Last Post: Angrboda
  Christians: Why does the answer have to be god? IanHulett 67 12353 April 5, 2018 at 3:33 pm
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  Christians: Does Your God Have Testicles and Ovaries? chimp3 97 12042 April 1, 2018 at 1:37 am
Last Post: GrandizerII
  Why does my family want me to be christian so much? Der/die AtheistIn 17 1868 March 29, 2018 at 7:12 pm
Last Post: Succubus
  Jesus as Lord - why is this appealing to so many? KevinM1 307 19327 February 14, 2018 at 9:07 pm
Last Post: polymath257



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)