Assholes in the news

[Rev. Rye]

Then why do you want people to stop being so white when you don't even believe white is a real thing?

You want me to stop being racist? Can you send me a link to a dictionary definition that says being against discrimination based on skin colour is racist? I thought it was the opposite, but maybe my dictionary is getting it wrong.

I understand very well about unconscious bias and how we're all a little bit racist when it comes down to it. I'm imperfect just like everyone else, but assuming a white person is oppressive right off the bat and telling them to stop being white is racist as hell. Only a racist wouldn't see that.

Because we don't exactly live in the ideal world where all whiteness means is you're more likely to get sunburn. We live in a world where whites conquered everything and gave everyone else the shaft. You say white people put men on the moon, well, it ain't as simple as that.

This is Katherine Johnson. She was the woman (and a black one at that, although she's light-skinned and the black and white film doesn't pick it up very well) who calculated the trajectory for the Apollo 11 moon landing, and it took forever for her to get any recognition for that fact. Case in point, she only even got a Wikipedia article at the tail end of 2009. Looking at the "legacies and honors" section of her Wikipedia article, apart from her "Alumnus of the Year" award, it looks like she only started getting properly recognised for her contributions SIX YEARS AGO. Why? Here's where the other definitions of whiteness, specifically the ones DiAngelo uses, come in.

See, the definitions she uses for whiteness aren't quite what you might use to define whiteness. It's not exactly about skin colour, or even European ancestry. It's about how our perceptions of it interact with society's power structures. Like, to take Katherine Johnson's example, why someone like Wernher von Braun (a former Nazi even if his relationship with the party was complex as fuck) could be a household name at the time and how she only even got within spitting distance of that recognition when she was pushing 100. It's how it never even occurred to me that black women could have played such a crucial role in the Apollo and Mercury programs until I started hearing buzz about the Hidden Figures movie. And more crucially, it's about how much of an outlier Katherine Johnson was. You might think "of course she's an outlier! You know how few people are good enough at STEM to become a part of NASA?" Well, even among those lucky few, black people are still underrepresented. This chart is from 2015, and it doesn't look like things are much better now:



While the educational system for black people isn't as dire as it was when Johnson was still in school, it's still shockingly grim. Many black people still live in poverty and the neighbourhoods they live in are still de facto segregated due to the legacy of a little thing called redlining, and because most schools are funded by property taxes and there isn't much property tax to go around, these schools are underfunded and thus, frankly, crap. It's potentially possible for them to get out of the ghetto, but actually doing so is a lot harder than just working hard. It's a hell of a lot harder to go up in the world than it is to go down, and it's even harder when you have fewer resources, like many black people in poverty do. And there's a LOT of black people in poverty. Even at its lowest point, there were at least twice as many black families in poverty than white families:


Frankly, this isn't even close to everything I could say about systemic racism, and I've been writing this for over an hour just using what I could find about Katherine Johnson's story as a jumping off point. But suffice it to say, the fact that white people live in a bubble that's so insulated from the consequences that we can't even see it for what it is when we actually encounter it is a big part of what DiAngelo called whiteness. When she talks about making people be less white, remember that that's the big thing she wants people to stop doing.

You know the legend of how the Buddha lived his first years in a little bubble and only got to see the outside world and found out that illness, old age, and death were a thing when he was 29?



What if young Siddhartha saw these things and, instead of being concerned about what he saw, just asked why they weren't moving around like people should and he couldn't process the fact that sometimes, shit like that was due to factors beyond their control? That would be a perfect metaphor for how blind we are to our privilege and how society doesn't grant that privilege to others. That, more than anything else, is what this whole presentation, is trying to combat.

We can argue about whether or not using that exact terminology is counterproductive, but the underlying idea is sound.

[Irreligious Atheist]

Then why do you want people to stop being so white when you don't even believe white is a real thing?

You want me to stop being racist? Can you send me a link to a dictionary definition that says being against discrimination based on skin colour is racist? I thought it was the opposite, but maybe my dictionary is getting it wrong.

I understand very well about unconscious bias and how we're all a little bit racist when it comes down to it. I'm imperfect just like everyone else, but assuming a white person is oppressive right off the bat and telling them to stop being white is racist as hell. Only a racist wouldn't see that.

Because we don't exactly live in the ideal world where all whiteness means is you're more likely to get sunburn. We live in a world where whites conquered everything and gave everyone else the shaft.  You say white people put men on the moon, well, it ain't as simple as that.

This is Katherine Johnson. She was the woman (and a black one at that, although she's light-skinned and the black and white film doesn't pick it up very well) who calculated the trajectory for the Apollo 11 moon landing, and it took forever for her to get any recognition for that fact. Case in point, she only even got a Wikipedia article at the tail end of 2009. Looking at the "legacies and honors" section of her Wikipedia article, apart from her "Alumnus of the Year" award, it looks like she only started getting properly recognised for her contributions SIX YEARS AGO. Why? Here's where the other definitions of whiteness, specifically the ones DiAngelo uses, come in.

See, the definitions she uses for whiteness aren't quite what you might use to define whiteness. It's not exactly about skin colour, or even European ancestry. It's about how our perceptions of it interact with society's power structures. Like, to take Katherine Johnson's example, why someone like Wernher von Braun  (a former Nazi even if his relationship with the party was complex as fuck) could be a household name at the time and how she only even got within spitting distance of that recognition when she was pushing 100. It's how it never even occurred to me that black women could have played such a crucial role in the Apollo and Mercury programs until I started hearing buzz about the Hidden Figures movie. And more crucially, it's about how much of an outlier Katherine Johnson was. You might think "of course she's an outlier! You know how few people are good enough at STEM to become a part of NASA?" Well, even among those lucky few, black people are still underrepresented. This chart is from 2015, and it doesn't look like things are much better now:



While the educational system for black people isn't as dire as it was when Johnson was still in school, it's still shockingly grim. Many black people still live in poverty and the neighbourhoods they live in are still de facto segregated due to the legacy of a little thing called redlining, and because most schools are funded by property taxes and there isn't much property tax to go around, these schools are underfunded and thus, frankly, crap. It's potentially possible for them to get out of the ghetto, but actually doing so is a lot harder than just working hard. It's a hell of a lot harder to go up in the world than it is to go down, and it's even harder when you have fewer resources, like many black people in poverty do. And there's a LOT of black people in poverty. Even at its lowest point, there were at least twice as many black families in poverty than white families:


Frankly, this isn't even close to everything I could say about systemic racism, and I've been writing this for over an hour just using what I could find about Katherine Johnson's story as a jumping off point. But suffice it to say, the fact that white people live in a bubble that's so insulated from the consequences that we can't even see it for what it is when we actually encounter it is a big part of what DiAngelo called whiteness. When she talks about making people be less white, remember that that's the big thing she wants people to stop doing.

You know the legend of how the Buddha lived his first years in a little bubble and only got to see the outside world and found out that illness, old age, and death were a thing when he was 29?



What if young Siddhartha saw these things and, instead of being concerned about what he saw, just asked why they weren't moving around like people should and he couldn't process the fact that sometimes, shit like that was due to factors beyond their control? That would be a perfect metaphor for how blind we are to our privilege and how society doesn't grant that privilege to others. That, more than anything else, is what this whole presentation, is trying to combat.

We can argue about whether or not using that exact terminology is counterproductive, but the underlying idea is sound.

I'm right there with you. I agree with most of what you are saying. We all have unconscious bias. Blacks deal with systemic disadvantages, obviously. Whites have privilege, obviously. I'm not one of those 'pull yourself up by the bootstraps' guys because I don't believe in free will and see how hard that is when you are born into difficult circumstances. The police are obviously just a gang that covers for their own. No snitching. Rich and powerful white people don't care about blacks doing well, obviously.

That's why it's so sad that we can seem so far apart on the issues when we're really not. I just don't want to see "white" used as a slur, because it wouldn't be acceptable to do that with any other group of people. And it's not even regular people having resentment towards whites that I care that much about. I understand why blacks might look at whites negatively and have hard feelings. That's one thing. But for the media and the mainstream and companies like Coca-Cola to start embracing this bigoted language towards a certain group of people, whether it's meant that way or not, is really messed up.

I disagree with the "believe" part though. Do we believe Ghislaine Maxwell? Believe all women, right? Do we believe and agree with a person just because they're black? Black activist Gazi Kodzo said he's sick and tired of hearing about Anne Frank and that people need to shut up about her and start saying the names of slave children instead. Does that mean that it should be against work policy to bring up Anne Frank? No. You accept what someone is saying if it makes sense. Not because of their skin colour.

[Rev. Rye]

It's more complicated than just "believing all women." Sometimes, people lie. There's no way around that fact. But if, for instance, a lot of black people say "this is what it's like being black" and you can look further into it and what they say corresponds to reality, that's a pretty good sign you should believing something. Also, dpn't dismiss what a person has to say just because they're a certain category (black, gay, female, what have you), unless that individual has proven themselves untrustworthy. This isn't a complete guide for when to believe people or not, but I think it's a good start.

[The Grand Nudger]

That's why it's so sad that we can seem so far apart on the issues when we're really not. I just don't want to see "white" used as a slur, because it wouldn't be acceptable to do that with any other group of people. And it's not even regular people having resentment towards whites that I care that much about. I understand why blacks might look at whites negatively and have hard feelings. That's one thing. But for the media and the mainstream and companies like Coca-Cola to start embracing this bigoted language towards a certain group of people, whether it's meant that way or not, is really messed up.

If that is the part that's messed up, maybe you should realize that that is the part that's in your head?

Stop.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Ok, I know that the last post in this topic is (little) over a month old, but sometimes I see such assholery in the news that I can't resist not putting it here

An explosive prop being built for a gender reveal party accidentally detonated and killed a father-to-be in New York state

Christopher Pekny, 28, (father-to-be) died in the blast and his brother Michael Pekny, 27, was injured, officials said.

The prop under construction wasn't even going to be the final product to be used for the gender reveal, but just the prototype, Trooper Steven Nevel told NBC News.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1258554

Here's a wacky idea for a gender reveal party: You and your partner go in for the sonogram. The tech asks if you want to know the sex of your child. You say 'yes', the tech tells you and you go the fuck home.

Boru

[arewethereyet]

Back in the old days ('87 and before) the gender reveal happened in the delivery room. I don't recall confetti or smoke bombs being part of the announcement.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Back in the old days ('87 and before) the gender reveal happened in the delivery room.  I don't recall confetti or smoke bombs being part of the announcement.

Pfft. Where’s the chance of death and serious property damage doing it that way??

Boru

[arewethereyet]

Back in the old days ('87 and before) the gender reveal happened in the delivery room.  I don't recall confetti or smoke bombs being part of the announcement.

Pfft. Where’s the chance of death and serious property damage doing it that way??

Boru

I still can't figure out why people need to know ahead of time.  People used to manage just fine in the not-so-distant past with finding out at birth.

When my first was born (after a long arduous labor) the doctor said it was a boy then a nurse said it was a girl.  You would hope that labor and delivery personnel would know.  I was to the point of not caring as long as it over with.

[Rev. Rye]

That's why it's so sad that we can seem so far apart on the issues when we're really not. I just don't want to see "white" used as a slur, because it wouldn't be acceptable to do that with any other group of people. And it's not even regular people having resentment towards whites that I care that much about. I understand why blacks might look at whites negatively and have hard feelings. That's one thing. But for the media and the mainstream and companies like Coca-Cola to start embracing this bigoted language towards a certain group of people, whether it's meant that way or not, is really messed up.

If that is the part that's messed up, maybe you should realize that that is the part that's in your head?

Stop.

For the record, it’s not so much a slur as a sociological term that probably isn’t being given enough explanation. If I’m interpreting your reply accurately, I think my spiel about Katherine Johnson gave you some idea what DiAngelo means by whiteness. You might think it unfair to associate white people with oppression, but, to be honest, given that the idea of “white people” as opposed to, for instance, Englishmen or Spaniards or Germans originated as part of a power structure that placed themselves as “white people” on the top and “black people” on the bottom, and for the longest time, most white people have actively supported that power structure, it’s a fitting term, although it does require a lot of explanation to keep it from sounding like essentialist bullshit.

[The Grand Nudger]

It's been given plenty of explanation, and plenty of explanation explicitly to IA. He chooses to continue regardless.