Why Atheism is Incoherent & You Aren't as Smart as You Think You Are

[Belacqua]

Why call nature God? Because that is what all the other theologies are grasping at when they talk of God.

I think you need a few more steps in your argument to reach this conclusion.

You've posited this, as far as I can see, on the fact that there are regularities in nature which we call "laws." These laws, apparently, point to certain ends. 

So far so good. Aristotle long ago argued that the structure and nature of a thing "points to" certain outcomes. These outcomes, as far as I can tell, are what you are calling "purposes." So the purpose, in this sense, of an acorn is a mature oak tree. 

Now suppose we agree with all that, but we see the structure and nature of the universe as inevitably pointing toward heat death. Heat death thus becomes the "purpose" of the universe. (And I know that heat death isn't proved yet, but we can take it as an example.) 

I still don't see why we need to bring in the word "divine" or "God" in order to see structures and natures pointing to certain ends. It works just as well without putting God into it. 

that is what all the other theologies are grasping at when they talk of God.

I'm wary of blanket statements like this. ALL other theologies? Is this in the Vedas? Is it in all forms of Buddhism? I'll withhold judgment on this one. 

Second, just because theology attributes the laws of nature to God doesn't mean there's any reason for us to use that term. 

As I understand it, the laws or principles of nature are necessary but not sufficient in many arguments for a God or something like a God. Aristotle doesn't just say that because things point in a certain way, therefore there is a God. He needs many additional steps to get to a First Cause, and what he describes certainly isn't obvious from the fact that acorns point to mature trees. (His God is basically just Thought, thinking itself.) 

The Stoics and Neoplatonists, roughly speaking, see the laws of nature as the Logos, which is an emanation of the One. The One is similar in many ways to the Christian God (and became more so when the Christians started stealing Neoplatonic ideas) but again, they don't assume that the existence of a Logos is sufficient to demonstrate the truth of the One. 

So I think your assertion that the universe is and acts a certain way, and points to certain ends, is fairly easy to get to. Again, I'm not sure it's true, but it's something a lot of reasonable people believe without reference to things divine. But your conclusion that we should call this God is so far undemonstrated, as far as I can see.

[LadyForCamus]

So you've figured out that the world is, so far as anyone can tell, around four and a half billion years old, life began as self-reproducing proteins that, driven to transmute through natural selection, produced all modern species. You've figured out that Genesis is nothing but a Jewish fairy tale. You, since you're on an 'atheist forum,' think you're very clever no doubt for having figured this out. You imagine you are a part of a small, but growing, rational community of enlightened individuals.

The truth is anyone with a room temperature IQ, unless hindered by religious brainwashing, can figure this out in 2021. You aren't nearly as clever as you imagine. Because everything I mentioned in the above paragraph speaks to the universe having fundamental purpose and meaning. I am not talking about the Judeo-Christian spook of a bearded man in the sky, I'm talking about the the laws of nature themselves. If nature is deterministic, and one of the fundamental assumptions of science is that it is, then we must assume that the rise of life from proteins, and the ever upward development, through struggle, of life from these early proteins to complex, highly advanced lifeforms like men has been predetermined by the very laws of nature themselves. Nature then is not meaningless, without purpose, but has goals and ends. The laws of nature themselves are an expression of God.

Think about it! You know that the Hebrew account of a God apart from nature creating everything is nothing but a fairy tail, yet you persist in the Judeo-Christian error of denying the obvious purpose and meaning in nature. To the Christian nature is nothing but a sideshow God created as a backdrop to his moral obstacle course for souls. You know that's not true, you know that man is himself a part of nature, that the universe is in motion, constantly evolving towards higher and higher states & that everything that is is a product of nature. Yet you refuse to overcome Christian nihilism towards nature, to accept that these natural processes are not meaningless or without purpose or direction. Nature; the universe, is directed by Divine Will. That is what the laws of nature, whether they be the laws of gravity, chemistry or biology, are; the Will of God!

Hey, what is that symbol you’re using as your avatar?

[LadyForCamus]

So you've figured out that the world is, so far as anyone can tell, around four and a half billion years old, life began as self-reproducing proteins that, driven to transmute through natural selection, produced all modern species. You've figured out that Genesis is nothing but a Jewish fairy tale. You, since you're on an 'atheist forum,' think you're very clever no doubt for having figured this out. You imagine you are a part of a small, but growing, rational community of enlightened individuals.

The truth is anyone with a room temperature IQ, unless hindered by religious brainwashing, can figure this out in 2021. You aren't nearly as clever as you imagine. Because everything I mentioned in the above paragraph speaks to the universe having fundamental purpose and meaning. I am not talking about the Judeo-Christian spook of a bearded man in the sky, I'm talking about the the laws of nature themselves. If nature is deterministic, and one of the fundamental assumptions of science is that it is, then we must assume that the rise of life from proteins, and the ever upward development, through struggle, of life from these early proteins to complex, highly advanced lifeforms like men has been predetermined by the very laws of nature themselves. Nature then is not meaningless, without purpose, but has goals and ends. The laws of nature themselves are an expression of God.

Think about it! You know that the Hebrew account of a God apart from nature creating everything is nothing but a fairy tail, yet you persist in the Judeo-Christian error of denying the obvious purpose and meaning in nature. To the Christian nature is nothing but a sideshow God created as a backdrop to his moral obstacle course for souls. You know that's not true, you know that man is himself a part of nature, that the universe is in motion, constantly evolving towards higher and higher states & that everything that is is a product of nature. Yet you refuse to overcome Christian nihilism towards nature, to accept that these natural processes are not meaningless or without purpose or direction. Nature; the universe, is directed by Divine Will. That is what the laws of nature, whether they be the laws of gravity, chemistry or biology, are; the Will of God!

“Laws of nature exist, therefore god.”

Is this your best argument?

[Angrboda]

Seax apparently wants to call the universe God. Well, if we can call things anything we want, I'm gonna call myself the Queen of France and dare you to contradict me.

[Silver]

Seax apparently wants to call the universe God. Well, if we can call things anything we want, I'm gonna call myself the Queen of France and dare you to contradict me.

I dare say the real queen of France contradicts you.

[Angrboda]

Seax apparently wants to call the universe God.  Well, if we can call things anything we want, I'm gonna call myself the Queen of France and dare you to contradict me.

I dare say the real queen of France contradicts you.

Nonsense, I've never contradicted myself.

[Pat Mustard]

Burp.

Quick guess,  You argue with people frequently that all the stickers on your truck are for your love of viking culture.

FSM has xis hands full with this one.

Yeah, I'm guessing neo-nazi too.

[Sal]

Play stupid games, win stupid prices.

[The Grand Nudger]

By God I mean mere the universe; nature, and by God's Will I mean the purpose inherent in nature. Why call that God? Because that is what all the other religions are grasping at when they talk about God.

Wouldn't this also be an exercise in obscuring the truth by reference to dogma?  It's just the universe, not a god.  

At any rate, atheists don't have any more trouble believing in the universe than they do believing in purpose.  I tend to broadly agree with the notion that all human religion is an attempt to describe our sense of the numinous, and that this sense itself is real and natural and can point to other real and natural things - but you've probably got the wrong audience for the rest of it.

[Ferrocyanide]

So you've figured out that the world is, so far as anyone can tell, around four and a half billion years old, life began as self-reproducing proteins that, driven to transmute through natural selection, produced all modern species. You've figured out that Genesis is nothing but a Jewish fairy tale. You, since you're on an 'atheist forum,' think you're very clever no doubt for having figured this out. You imagine you are a part of a small, but growing, rational community of enlightened individuals.

The truth is anyone with a room temperature IQ, unless hindered by religious brainwashing, can figure this out in 2021. You aren't nearly as clever as you imagine. Because everything I mentioned in the above paragraph speaks to the universe having fundamental purpose and meaning. I am not talking about the Judeo-Christian spook of a bearded man in the sky, I'm talking about the the laws of nature themselves. If nature is deterministic, and one of the fundamental assumptions of science is that it is, then we must assume that the rise of life from proteins, and the ever upward development, through struggle, of life from these early proteins to complex, highly advanced lifeforms like men has been predetermined by the very laws of nature themselves. Nature then is not meaningless, without purpose, but has goals and ends. The laws of nature themselves are an expression of God.

Think about it! You know that the Hebrew account of a God apart from nature creating everything is nothing but a fairy tail, yet you persist in the Judeo-Christian error of denying the obvious purpose and meaning in nature. To the Christian nature is nothing but a sideshow God created as a backdrop to his moral obstacle course for souls. You know that's not true, you know that man is himself a part of nature, that the universe is in motion, constantly evolving towards higher and higher states & that everything that is is a product of nature. Yet you refuse to overcome Christian nihilism towards nature, to accept that these natural processes are not meaningless or without purpose or direction. Nature; the universe, is directed by Divine Will. That is what the laws of nature, whether they be the laws of gravity, chemistry or biology, are; the Will of God!

No problem. I’ll give a serious reply.

1. The 4.56 billion y old is not something that I have figured out. That is data that comes from various scientists.
2. Proteins don’t self reproduce. Abiogenesis is an unsolved problem although bits of the puzzle have been worked on.
3. According to various data coming from science, the Genesis story is just a myth coming from one or a few cultures from the middle east.
A large portion of jews and christians don’t take Genesis literally either, so atheist are not alone in not accepting Genesis as a factual account.
4. I’m new here. I just came to make contact and sometimes bounce ideas off fellow atheists. Based on their reply, it looks like most of them are tired of you.
5. Room temperature IQ? I’m not sure about that. For example, there are PhD holders, intelligent people who think Joseph Smith of the Mormon religion is a prophet.
In other words, it is possible to set aside logic and believe in these religions and in a mysterious god with mysterious plans.

“the universe having fundamental purpose and meaning”

==In order to have a purpose, an intelligence is required. My watch has a purpose. It is a tool that I use to measure time.
It is made by machine that are made by other machines that are ultimately made by humans.

“If nature is deterministic”

==Radioactivity suggests that at the very small scale, it is not deterministic.
This is why you get an exponential equation.
N = N0 * e ^ (-t/z) where t is time and z = half life / ln(2)


This equation tells us about a fundamental property of nature.

“one of the fundamental assumptions of science is that it is”

==Yes, back in the early 1930 and before that.
But, data started piling up as research was conducted. That view changed when it was demonstrated how successful quantum mechanics is.

“The laws of nature themselves are an expression of God.”

==Wouldn’t the laws that govern this alien god, his universe, his brothers and sisters .... Wouldn’t the laws also be created by another alien god?


--Ferrocyanide