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RE: What is the best counter argument against "What do you lose by believing?"
May 1, 2021 at 11:37 am
(This post was last modified: May 1, 2021 at 11:39 am by Fake Messiah.)
(April 29, 2021 at 6:20 pm)Macoleco Wrote: What do you lose by believing?
You lose everything, of course, because religion poisons everything.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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RE: What is the best counter argument against "What do you lose by believing?"
May 1, 2021 at 11:39 am
If true facts have greater utility than false facts, and the beliefs are untrue, then you lose some measure of utility as your worldview diverges from reality.
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RE: What is the best counter argument against "What do you lose by believing?"
May 1, 2021 at 11:57 am
(This post was last modified: May 1, 2021 at 11:57 am by vulcanlogician.)
It really depends on what religion it is. What does x religion require you to give up? Well... you lose that.
But then, even if I didn't mind giving up whatever it was, there's still the matter of wanting to believe true things. If all Blue Unicornism wanted me to give up was wearing rubber boots on Sunday (even with the stipulation that I could wear them every once in a while if I really needed to) I'd still want to say: "But the Blue Unicorn isn't real. I don't want this belief system in my life."
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RE: What is the best counter argument against "What do you lose by believing?"
May 1, 2021 at 7:32 pm
First of all, beliefs are not a choice. We can't just choose to believe, we believe the things for which we are convinced to be true, or likely true.
So, the best I could do, is act as if I believe, I guess to cover my ass. But what god would not be able to detect my shallow attempts to pull one over on him/her/it/them?
Or maybe I could act as if I believe in order to "fake it until I make it". But how is this any different than self indoctrination?
But, belief in which god? If I believe in the wrong god, I am possibly pissing off the god that does exist. Therefore, I might lose out on some possible paradise in the after life. And since there is no good, evidential and logically valid and sound reasons to believe in any gods, I have absolutely no way to tell which gods I am going to piss off.
Do I 'chose' to believe in order to avoid the worst afterlife, or to gain the best one?
You'd believe if you just opened your heart" is a terrible argument for religion. It's basically saying, "If you bias yourself enough, you can convince yourself that this is true." If religion were true, people wouldn't need faith to believe it -- it would be supported by good evidence.
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RE: What is the best counter argument against "What do you lose by believing?"
May 1, 2021 at 7:41 pm
(April 29, 2021 at 6:20 pm)Macoleco Wrote: When people tell me this I reply y saying "what god?" as there are many. I wonder if there is a better argument.
Also what do you say when people say they believe because they "feel God", so it is the "right religion"?
What do you lose by accepting belief in Allah, or Vishnu, or Thor, or Yoda?
Facts. Those comforting lies may make an individual feel good, and foster group survival. But most of the world in antiquity thought the earth was flat, and if some humans in that history had never questioned social norms, our species never would have made it to the moon.
"Feel" or "I just know" is nonsense. Airline pilots are constantly trianed to ignore their body reactions and stick to the instruments. That famous line from first Star Wars movie is bullshit, "Trust your feelings Luke". Sully who landed the jet on the Hudson didn't go with his "feelings" he went by his training.
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RE: What is the best counter argument against "What do you lose by believing?"
May 1, 2021 at 8:05 pm
Nobody has to lose anything by believing in some religion. The ones that would cause a loss are particularly shitty.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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