Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: March 29, 2024, 11:36 am

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Why not dismiss the trinitarian belief outright
#71
RE: Why not dismiss the trinitarian belief outright
I don't really care about disagreements among christians. The NT is the literal word of God and it contains three entities that are equal to God. Either christianity in its present form is trinitarian (and therefore wrong) or Vicki has a different Bible.
Reply
#72
RE: Why not dismiss the trinitarian belief outright
The trinitarian compromise asserts that all three characters are one.

It’s a mystery of faith, literally. Like so much of what you believe. You may disagree with them, but you should understand better than an atheist why people don’t abandon such beliefs.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#73
RE: Why not dismiss the trinitarian belief outright
(July 29, 2021 at 11:24 am)Klorophyll Wrote: I don't really care about disagreements among christians. The NT is the literal word of God and it contains three entities that are equal to God. Either christianity in its present form is trinitarian (and therefore wrong) or Vicki has a different Bible.

The NT does mention all 3 characters.  The idea that they are both distinct yet one is ridiculous.

And, no, the NT is not the literal word of God.  Which parts - the ones that contradict or have errors?  Have you researched how the NT was put together?

Those that believe in biblical inerrancy use this argument:

1) God is real
2) God wants us to know His plan
3) The bible tells us God's plan
4) Therefore the bible must not be in error, or God failed in letting us know his plan.

There are many assumptions and fallacies in this argument.
Reply
#74
RE: Why not dismiss the trinitarian belief outright
(July 29, 2021 at 11:07 am)Vicki Q Wrote: OK, so there's no actual evidence that the community described in the NT believed in anything other than God is One. So we can Hitchens that suggestion.

And yet Paul himself complains about the diversity among early believers. Paul also repeatedly rails against his many rival apostles, who “preach another Jesus.” He often rages and fumes that his rivals are evil deceivers, with false Christs and false gospels so different from his own true Christ and true Gospel, that he accuses them of being agents of Satan and even lays curses and threats upon them.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
Reply
#75
RE: Why not dismiss the trinitarian belief outright
As mentioned before- to hold the position being asserted one not only has to throw history in mere reality out the window…but also the contents of the fairy tale they insist to be true.

It’s completely unworkable. A fantasy of how a person wishes their religious beliefs came to be. Personally, I think it devalues those beliefs to imagine them as such. Reducing them to the level of fandom.

Ofc, the Muslim in thread is doing exactly the same thing as a counter argument against it.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#76
RE: Why not dismiss the trinitarian belief outright
(July 29, 2021 at 11:16 am)Klorophyll Wrote:
(July 28, 2021 at 10:01 am)Vicki Q Wrote: Secondly, the NT is clear and non-negotiable on the Oneness of God. In what sense are the groups of three you name one single entity in the same sense?

"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit " (Matthew 28:19 ESV)
<snip>
"For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God." (John 5:18 NIV)

I'm not sure I can see the point you're making. That God is One is repeated over and over again in the NT. The quote in #68 is one of many, many examples.

The quotes you give establish Jesus and the Holy Spirit within that One. This would be in a very similar way to how the C1 Jews would have viewed, say, the Burning Bush, or the Pillar of Cloud and Fire. It was entirely possible for them to say- this Entity you could see/hear/etc is God. They didn't believe the Burning Bush was a challenge to God being One, and nor did the Early Jewish church have a problem with saying Jesus is God, and God is One.

(July 29, 2021 at 12:02 pm)Fake Messiah Wrote:
(July 29, 2021 at 11:07 am)Vicki Q Wrote: OK, so there's no actual evidence that the community described in the NT believed in anything other than God is One. So we can Hitchens that suggestion.

And yet Paul himself complains about the diversity among early believers. Paul also repeatedly rails against his many rival apostles, who “preach another Jesus.” He often rages and fumes that his rivals are evil deceivers, with false Christs and false gospels so different from his own true Christ and true Gospel, that he accuses them of being agents of Satan and even lays curses and threats upon them.

Oh, there was visceral warfare over the ongoing need to follow the Torah. There were serious problems with factionalism based around personalities. But there is a very striking lack of disagreement about the placing of Jesus as God. Paul doesn't feel the need to argue the point, or justify his belief, and there is no evidence anywhere of it causing a problem. He simply states it.

That surely tells us it wasn't controversial, and I'm keeping my Hitchens...
Reply
#77
RE: Why not dismiss the trinitarian belief outright
Well if you are keeping Hitchens then you should dismiss the whole Bible because Bible is nothing but assertions without any evidence.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
Reply
#78
RE: Why not dismiss the trinitarian belief outright
(August 10, 2021 at 1:29 pm)Vicki Q Wrote: Oh, there was visceral warfare over the ongoing need to follow the Torah. There were serious problems with factionalism based around personalities. But there is a very striking lack of disagreement about the placing of Jesus as God. Paul doesn't feel the need to argue the point, or justify his belief, and there is no evidence anywhere of it causing a problem. He simply states it.
b-mine

No..there wasn't.  Why do you think the roman administrative state was so pessimistic about the set?  They were brawling in the streets, killing people for wrongthink as they saw it.

That's why "Paul" wrote his screeds.  There was no unified christian faith at that time. You're talking about your sects establishment legend as though it were history, Vicki. It isn't. This isn't even a hot item of debate in christian studies. It's a known known.

You may believe that the eventually understanding which emerged victorious and became the foundation of your own contemporary christianity was an accurate one, with respect to jesus being god, but that isn't how christianity was birthed into the world as a matter of historic fact, even if it were true.

Which, amusingly, it isn't. Turtles all the way down.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#79
RE: Why not dismiss the trinitarian belief outright
I'm finding this thread to be quite entertaining. As a former evangelical Christian, I can certainly relate. To be sure, most Christians don't really understand the meaning of the trinity because it isn't a rational concept and some will say we aren't supposed understand it. It's not something that's debated or scrutinized in Sunday School; you're just expected to accept it and move on. The Bible itself doesn't really explain it either, though it clearly establishes that the son is not the Father, nor is he the HS, but all are god. Makes sense, right? Of course not.

That's the general consensus among most protestants, but there are probably a ton who have a slightly different spin on it. From an atheist's perspective, it's all nonsense and not that much different from other religious modalities, so all you'll get from most atheists is a "who cares" shrug. Christians will likely debate this kind of thing until their fingers fall off.

Here's a good resource that explains how Christians try to make sense of it. Good luck.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Trinity-Bible.html
Why is it so?
~Julius Sumner Miller
Reply
#80
RE: Why not dismiss the trinitarian belief outright
One of the stranger aspects of christianity as we have it today is the split between the rank and file faithful and academics. What the one group is lead to believe compared to counterfactual elements which the other group knows and understands and has always been coming to terms with.

The latter group arrives at a position of faith which is at least concordant with reality. That even though there was vast disagreement and the process which lead to the current understanding was convoluted and murky - what made it out the other side was a fairly accurate representation of the set of true beliefs and a valuable message.

The former group, for their part, seems to be worried that acknowledging history somehow argues against the truth of their faith, or the value of the message. It's not clear why this would be the case. People disagreed about oxygen once, too, and mentioning that fact doesn't seem to have any effect on the fact of oxygens existence.

I'd even argue that for the miracle minded believers, the quagmire that The Real Truth somehow emerged from makes it even more magical.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Where does the belief that seeds die before they turn into a living plant come from? FlatAssembler 17 1281 August 3, 2023 at 10:38 am
Last Post: The Grand Nudger
  Belief Catharsis 57 4179 March 24, 2019 at 9:54 am
Last Post: Shell B
  Is there another motivation for christian belief? brewer 118 16917 September 23, 2016 at 1:02 pm
Last Post: TubbyTubby
  My view of theism - theism analogous to belief in extra terrestrials joseph_ 4 1229 August 30, 2016 at 4:20 am
Last Post: Jarrey
  I don't do "lack of belief", bitch. Foxaèr 35 5863 March 21, 2016 at 9:12 pm
Last Post: Panatheist
  What is needed to combat the overwhelming level of belief in God? SteveII 149 20131 December 14, 2015 at 9:10 am
Last Post: Athene
  So what do you Christians like about your god belief/religion? Whateverist 44 9858 November 14, 2015 at 4:43 pm
Last Post: Catholic_Lady
  Theism the unscientific belief dyresand 18 3996 November 11, 2015 at 3:42 am
Last Post: Wyrd of Gawd
  Why is Faith/Belief a Moral Issue? Rhondazvous 120 25082 August 21, 2015 at 11:14 am
Last Post: Rhondazvous
  How to avoid confusion in your Christian belief. Pyrrho 14 3482 May 25, 2015 at 9:16 pm
Last Post: Salacious B. Crumb



Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)