Why not dismiss the trinitarian belief outright

[R00tKiT]

I don't really care about disagreements among christians. The NT is the literal word of God and it contains three entities that are equal to God. Either christianity in its present form is trinitarian (and therefore wrong) or Vicki has a different Bible.

[The Grand Nudger]

The trinitarian compromise asserts that all three characters are one.

It’s a mystery of faith, literally. Like so much of what you believe. You may disagree with them, but you should understand better than an atheist why people don’t abandon such beliefs.

[HappySkeptic]

I don't really care about disagreements among christians. The NT is the literal word of God and it contains three entities that are equal to God. Either christianity in its present form is trinitarian (and therefore wrong) or Vicki has a different Bible.

The NT does mention all 3 characters.  The idea that they are both distinct yet one is ridiculous.

And, no, the NT is not the literal word of God.  Which parts - the ones that contradict or have errors?  Have you researched how the NT was put together?

Those that believe in biblical inerrancy use this argument:

1) God is real
2) God wants us to know His plan
3) The bible tells us God's plan
4) Therefore the bible must not be in error, or God failed in letting us know his plan.

There are many assumptions and fallacies in this argument.

[Fake Messiah]

OK, so there's no actual evidence that the community described in the NT believed in anything other than God is One. So we can Hitchens that suggestion.

And yet Paul himself complains about the diversity among early believers. Paul also repeatedly rails against his many rival apostles, who “preach another Jesus.” He often rages and fumes that his rivals are evil deceivers, with false Christs and false gospels so different from his own true Christ and true Gospel, that he accuses them of being agents of Satan and even lays curses and threats upon them.

[The Grand Nudger]

As mentioned before- to hold the position being asserted one not only has to throw history in mere reality out the window…but also the contents of the fairy tale they insist to be true.

It’s completely unworkable. A fantasy of how a person wishes their religious beliefs came to be. Personally, I think it devalues those beliefs to imagine them as such. Reducing them to the level of fandom.

Ofc, the Muslim in thread is doing exactly the same thing as a counter argument against it.

[Vicki Q]

Secondly, the NT is clear and non-negotiable on the Oneness of God. In what sense are the groups of three you name one single entity in the same sense?

"Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit " (Matthew 28:19 ESV)
<snip>
"For this reason they tried all the more to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God." (John 5:18 NIV)

I'm not sure I can see the point you're making. That God is One is repeated over and over again in the NT. The quote in #68 is one of many, many examples.

The quotes you give establish Jesus and the Holy Spirit within that One. This would be in a very similar way to how the C1 Jews would have viewed, say, the Burning Bush, or the Pillar of Cloud and Fire. It was entirely possible for them to say- this Entity you could see/hear/etc is God. They didn't believe the Burning Bush was a challenge to God being One, and nor did the Early Jewish church have a problem with saying Jesus is God, and God is One.

---

OK, so there's no actual evidence that the community described in the NT believed in anything other than God is One. So we can Hitchens that suggestion.

And yet Paul himself complains about the diversity among early believers. Paul also repeatedly rails against his many rival apostles, who “preach another Jesus.” He often rages and fumes that his rivals are evil deceivers, with false Christs and false gospels so different from his own true Christ and true Gospel, that he accuses them of being agents of Satan and even lays curses and threats upon them.

Oh, there was visceral warfare over the ongoing need to follow the Torah. There were serious problems with factionalism based around personalities. But there is a very striking lack of disagreement about the placing of Jesus as God. Paul doesn't feel the need to argue the point, or justify his belief, and there is no evidence anywhere of it causing a problem. He simply states it.

That surely tells us it wasn't controversial, and I'm keeping my Hitchens...

[Fake Messiah]

Well if you are keeping Hitchens then you should dismiss the whole Bible because Bible is nothing but assertions without any evidence.

[The Grand Nudger]

Oh, there was visceral warfare over the ongoing need to follow the Torah. There were serious problems with factionalism based around personalities. But there is a very striking lack of disagreement about the placing of Jesus as God. Paul doesn't feel the need to argue the point, or justify his belief, and there is no evidence anywhere of it causing a problem. He simply states it.

b-mine

No..there wasn't.  Why do you think the roman administrative state was so pessimistic about the set?  They were brawling in the streets, killing people for wrongthink as they saw it.

That's why "Paul" wrote his screeds.  There was no unified christian faith at that time. You're talking about your sects establishment legend as though it were history, Vicki. It isn't. This isn't even a hot item of debate in christian studies. It's a known known.

You may believe that the eventually understanding which emerged victorious and became the foundation of your own contemporary christianity was an accurate one, with respect to jesus being god, but that isn't how christianity was birthed into the world as a matter of historic fact, even if it were true.

Which, amusingly, it isn't. Turtles all the way down.

[Spongebob]

I'm finding this thread to be quite entertaining. As a former evangelical Christian, I can certainly relate. To be sure, most Christians don't really understand the meaning of the trinity because it isn't a rational concept and some will say we aren't supposed understand it. It's not something that's debated or scrutinized in Sunday School; you're just expected to accept it and move on. The Bible itself doesn't really explain it either, though it clearly establishes that the son is not the Father, nor is he the HS, but all are god. Makes sense, right? Of course not.

That's the general consensus among most protestants, but there are probably a ton who have a slightly different spin on it. From an atheist's perspective, it's all nonsense and not that much different from other religious modalities, so all you'll get from most atheists is a "who cares" shrug. Christians will likely debate this kind of thing until their fingers fall off.

Here's a good resource that explains how Christians try to make sense of it. Good luck.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Trinity-Bible.html

[The Grand Nudger]

One of the stranger aspects of christianity as we have it today is the split between the rank and file faithful and academics. What the one group is lead to believe compared to counterfactual elements which the other group knows and understands and has always been coming to terms with.

The latter group arrives at a position of faith which is at least concordant with reality. That even though there was vast disagreement and the process which lead to the current understanding was convoluted and murky - what made it out the other side was a fairly accurate representation of the set of true beliefs and a valuable message.

The former group, for their part, seems to be worried that acknowledging history somehow argues against the truth of their faith, or the value of the message. It's not clear why this would be the case. People disagreed about oxygen once, too, and mentioning that fact doesn't seem to have any effect on the fact of oxygens existence.

I'd even argue that for the miracle minded believers, the quagmire that The Real Truth somehow emerged from makes it even more magical.