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Do humans have inherent value?
#31
RE: Do humans have inherent value?
As you mentioned, they had a trial. An execution isn't a comment on the worthlessness of a human being - at least not officially. We don't have to believe or contend that a person has no (or has destroyed) their human value in order to end their life.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#32
RE: Do humans have inherent value?
(June 13, 2021 at 2:49 pm)Angrboda Wrote:
(June 13, 2021 at 1:06 am)LadyForCamus Wrote: We value each other and ourselves, generally. But value is a judgement. I don’t think we have any sort of objective, intrinsic value.

I don't completely disagree, but talking of inherent value in this way robs the phrase of any meaning.  I don't think people are mouthing empty phrases, so in some sense "inherent value" must refer to something other than literal, objective, intrinsic value.  I've been trying to think about what that is the past day, but haven't really arrived at anything.  Do you think when people use the term inherent value they are just talking nonsense?
I’m not sure that I understand the difference between intrinsic value and inherent value.
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”

Wiser words were never spoken. 
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#33
RE: Do humans have inherent value?
Of course human value diminishes with certain actions. Why else would I be a misanthrope?
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#34
RE: Do humans have inherent value?
(June 13, 2021 at 9:16 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote:
(June 13, 2021 at 2:49 pm)Angrboda Wrote: I don't completely disagree, but talking of inherent value in this way robs the phrase of any meaning.  I don't think people are mouthing empty phrases, so in some sense "inherent value" must refer to something other than literal, objective, intrinsic value.  I've been trying to think about what that is the past day, but haven't really arrived at anything.  Do you think when people use the term inherent value they are just talking nonsense?
I’m not sure that I understand the difference between intrinsic value and inherent value.

I was using them interchangeably. The question is, if there is no objective, inherent value, then what do people mean with the phrase?
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#35
RE: Do humans have inherent value?
(June 13, 2021 at 9:55 pm)Angrboda Wrote:
(June 13, 2021 at 9:16 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: I’m not sure that I understand the difference between intrinsic value and inherent value.

I was using them interchangeably.  The question is, if there is no objective, inherent value, then what do people mean with the phrase?

That would be expression of emotion. My guess is something akin to empathy.
I don't have an anger problem, I have an idiot problem




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#36
RE: Do humans have inherent value?
(June 13, 2021 at 9:55 pm)Angrboda Wrote:
(June 13, 2021 at 9:16 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: I’m not sure that I understand the difference between intrinsic value and inherent value.

I was using them interchangeably.  The question is, if there is no objective, inherent value, then what do people mean with the phrase?

I would suppose it depends on the person using the phrase. But let me think on it a bit.
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”

Wiser words were never spoken. 
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#37
RE: Do humans have inherent value?
Too bad. That Nandi Theunissen lecture I shared some weeks ago is unavailable. (The channel got blasted down by YouTube, and the creator must rebuild).

The lecture had some valuable things to say on the matter. Is something valuable because it is (in itself) good? Or is something only good if it is "good for" someone. The rubber hits the road when you start talking about stuff like inherent human value as it pertains to those two categories.
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#38
RE: Do humans have inherent value?
Or when we consider what (or whatever) we describe as the inherent quality of man. If human beings are inherent moralizers, for example. Say it's a weird tick of our biology - then there can be no state of affairs with humans present in which value will be absent. It's unclear that we always value-for-purpose, fundamentally. So, if our values-for-purpose are one set..and we don't call those inherent because they rely on their utility to us...what do we call the other set?

Is it mistaken apprehension in those cases? So that we can accept that these values have no (or no clear) utility to us - it's just something we do and (sometimes) get right, getting it right defined as apprehending only those values which are of use to us.

Imagine a good thing which causes you no joy, and has no relationship or utility to you whatsoever. We can reasonably expect that human beings will have utilitarian values, but what is this other set? An association error, perhaps? Apophetic ideations over value noise created as a byproduct of an otherwise (and always) utilitarian natural mechanism?

Maybe we're value flowers prettying up the landscape. Wink
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#39
RE: Do humans have inherent value?
i don't think it makes sense to say anything has intrinsic value. There's no value without a 'valuer'. A person's value is to themselves, to other humans, possibly to pets and/or scientists. Even the market value of our elemental components depends on a market that values them. A thing can have intrinsic properties, but 'value' can't be one of them. A value CAN be non-arbitrary, such as valuing something for it's useful qualities or companionship and so on, but a valuer is still required.

Sterilize all life throughout the universe, and soon enough nothing will have any value.
I'm not anti-Christian. I'm anti-stupid.
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#40
RE: Do humans have inherent value?
(June 14, 2021 at 11:36 am)Mister Agenda Wrote: i don't think it makes sense to say anything has intrinsic value. There's no value without a 'valuer'. A person's value is to themselves, to other humans, possibly to pets and/or scientists. Even the market value of our elemental components depends on a market that values them. A thing can have intrinsic properties, but 'value' can't be one of them. A value CAN be non-arbitrary, such as valuing something for it's useful qualities or companionship and so on, but a valuer is still required.

Sterilize all life throughout the universe, and soon enough nothing will have any value.

Value is a human cognitive concept.   Therefore there is no value beside what is given by humans.


However, I think when people say intrinsic value, what they really means is “given there are similarities to human cognition due to shared genetic heritage, and some common formative experience that are likely shared by majority of humans,  are there values that would likely be commonly assigned or accepted”

(June 13, 2021 at 9:22 pm)Foxaire Wrote: Of course human value diminishes with certain actions. Why else would I be a misanthrope?

Because you are worthless?
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