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April 11, 2011 at 7:30 am (This post was last modified: April 11, 2011 at 10:15 am by Zenith.)
(April 10, 2011 at 6:09 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: No GC your god is not free...he is a slave to YOUR wishes just as YOU make yourself a slave to his ego..which is just YOUR ego cathected onto an imaginary entity.
Xtains TOTALLY dictate how their god should act....like a misogynistic, murderous paedophiliac bastard..just like his followers
1. If the Christian God does not exist, xtians dictate much, but not all of how He should act. That's because in the bible (that which not themselves wrote) it is described how He is and many or only some xtians - don't know for sure how many - would cease to believe what they believed if they read in a bible verse that God is otherwise. In rest, the product of their own imagination.
2. If the Christian God does exist, then many people still dictate how He is/should be like. That's what happens when you don't know a person, or don't know him well - he is, in your head, more or less, what you imagine him to be. If the Christian God exists, then xtians can get to better understand how God is - in time. Except if they deny what their own bibles say about Him, when they read something they don't agree with/don't like.
This is frustrating to me: this thread was originally in the "Atheism" sub-forum. I've replied a lot of posts to this thread, mainly long posts, said my view about "God's freedom" and many others for which I didn't get any reply 'yet', and then that "server crash" occurred that destroyed all I have written. I wished I heard some opinions about what I had written. Anyway, now I'm not going to reply to everything, again.
P.S. It's not the Christian/Judaic bible that teaches pedophilia and beating of wives: it's the Qur'an & the Hadiths (Islam).
(March 15, 2011 at 1:57 am)Captain Scarlet Wrote: Assigning a god the supposed attributes of being the locus of morality, omnibenevolent and freedom to act. Ignoring issues with reality are these attributes contradictory?:
0. If a god exists he is the locus of morality, omnibenevolent and totally free to act.
1. As the locus of morality a god could only ever choose to do good things (such that it is necessarily true that, this god cannot do evil things) as determined by their nature.
2. An ominbenevolent god would only ever choose to do good things (or at lest the maximum amount of good things)
3. A god who is totally free to act must be able to choose to do evil things or not maximise the amount of good things that happen
4. A god does not exist
Interesting post, but I am afraid it's going to quickly become a game of semantics (and may have already, I have not caught up on all the replies) because Christian Theologians do not define certain terms the same way that you are using them in your syllogism (i.e. Logic, Omnipotence, and Good). So I do not feel this is an appropriate approach you are trying to take. Interesting none-the-less.
(April 10, 2011 at 6:09 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: No GC your god is not free...he is a slave to YOUR wishes just as YOU make yourself a slave to his ego..which is just YOUR ego cathected onto an imaginary entity.
Xtains TOTALLY dictate how their god should act....like a misogynistic, murderous paedophiliac bastard..just like his followers
1. If the Christian God does not exist, xtians dictate much, but not all of how He should act. That's because in the bible (that which not themselves wrote) it is described how He is and many or only some xtians - don't know for sure how many - would cease to believe what they believed if they read in a bible verse that God is otherwise. In rest, the product of their own imagination.
2. If the Christian God does exist, then many people still dictate how He is/should be like. That's what happens when you don't know a person, or don't know him well - he is, in your head, more or less, what you imagine him to be. If the Christian God exists, then xtians can get to better understand how God is - in time. Except if they deny what their own bibles say about Him, when they read something they don't agree with/don't like.
This is frustrating to me: this thread was originally in the "Atheism" sub-forum. I've replied a lot of posts to this thread, mainly long posts, said my view about "God's freedom" and many others for which I didn't get any reply 'yet', and then that "server crash" occurred that destroyed all I have written. I wished I heard some opinions about what I had written. Anyway, now I'm not going to reply to everything, again.
P.S. It's not the Christian/Judaic bible that teaches pedophilia and beating of wives: it's the Qur'an & the Hadiths (Islam).
as well. judeo/ islamic/ xtianity = judslamanity???
Yes Zenith.. the abrahamic religions are the only ones with this god/boy.
"The Universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements: energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." G'Kar-B5
(April 11, 2011 at 7:30 am)Zenith Wrote: P.S. It's not the Christian/Judaic bible that teaches pedophilia and beating of wives: it's the Qur'an & the Hadiths (Islam).
as well. judeo/ islamic/ xtianity = judslamanity???
Yes Zenith.. the abrahamic religions are the only ones with this god/boy.
I've written that because I know there is a verse in the qur'an that teaches a muslim to beat his wives if they do not obey him, I know that in the hadiths it is told that Muhammud married a 6 years old girl, and from some videos on youtube with muslims I've found out that Muhammud "consumed the marriage" (i.e. slept with her) since she was 9 (there must be another verse in the hadiths that I didn't read).
As about the christian/jewish bible, I don't know any verse to teach a man to beat his wives or to have sex with children, nor a prophet or something to have sex with a child.
So, if you know that the christian bible is the same in this matter as well, show me where it is written, so I'd check it out and see.
April 14, 2011 at 4:03 pm (This post was last modified: April 14, 2011 at 4:11 pm by Captain Scarlet.)
(April 10, 2011 at 5:08 am)Godschild Wrote: Yes God is free, not free to do the things that are against is nature but free from the things that are against His nature, so there is no need in Him doing the things that are against His nature. It is quite simple actually, why do some of you try to make it difficult. Do you enjoy batting around things that are so easily understood. When a being is omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent it is ludicrous to think that one can honestly believe they can define or dictate how that being should act.
Sir, I have presented an argument which you have not refuted; You have just barely asserted that a god is free, becuase he is. This is not an argument, just a "becuase I said so". Theists make it difficult for themselves, as an athiest I have not defined god, nor made it complicated, but merely point out the problems with the concept. In other: words your problem, not mine.
If your god is free and ominpotent he can commit evil, his nature (according to theist defintions) includes omnipotence and at least being perfectly good (if not omnibenenovalent). You must argue that he cannot commit evil becuase whilst he is omnipotent he cannot do anything against other parts of his nature (like being perfectly good). 3 problems with this defence:
1) Why should perfect goodness trump omnipotence? This is not explianed. Commiting evil is not instrincally logically impossible. It is argued that it is logically impossible for a god to commit evil and be perfectly good, thus god isn't evil. But because both omnipotence and perfect goodness are both parts of gods nature why is it that goodness trumps ominpotence? It seems only to be a device to preserve a concepts consistency rather than a well argued defence. Being omipiotent and unable to commit evil means that either the god under examination isn't really ominpotent or cannot fully express that omnipotence in all circumstances. Ergo that being is not free.
2) If that being cannot commit evil and can only do goods things, then why is he worthy of worship? This god has no choice, is compelled only to do good. A being who is compelled to act a certain way is not entitled to worship; they had no choice in the matter. Ergo they are not free. The challenge was laid down by William Rowe
3) If the theist successfully argues that god is both free and always does good, then the theist must concede that thre free will defence (to the problem of evil) is seriously undermined. It is clear that if this argument goes through free will and always performing good acts are compatible after all, and a god could program us to be both perfectly free and do good things as well (created in his image after all). This would make mans fall from grace a pointless and capriocious act, and means that this god has condemend us to a less than perfect existence than he could have brought about. This challenge was laid down by John Mackie
"I still say a church steeple with a lightning rod on top shows a lack of confidence"...Doug McLeod.
April 14, 2011 at 4:46 pm (This post was last modified: April 14, 2011 at 4:50 pm by everythingafter.)
(March 20, 2011 at 9:05 am)fr0d0 Wrote: You simply don't understand the nature of God, and I'd recommend you to study that further. Yes I don't find the concept of Jesus as God contradictory at all. Something else your knowledge is incomplete on.
I find it mystifying when I hear believers say stuff like this: There are no contradictions; you just don't understand. Or, you haven't gotten the right information about who God is. What pompous things to say.
Two questions then:
1. Why is this information so hard to come by?
2. If it's so important, why doesn't God make it clearer to those of us who have used his "God-given" logic to think through these matters carefully?
Even as a believer, I asked constantly for more understanding. It never came. Actually, it made less and less sense. Was that in God's perfect plan? If he existed in the first place, he sort of lost a believer there by his own inaction. I don't think "understanding" is too much to sincerely ask from a god who spoke the universe into existence. And why is more studying necessary. Isn't the Holy Spirit right there with you? If so, it seems to me believers would have all this "understanding" on tap. I was told many times that I have the Holy Spirit living in my heart. Well, if he was there, he was awfully hard to get information from! Believers will insist (and some have) that I was never saved in the first place. I believed wholeheartedly at one time, and professed my faith in Jesus Christ as my lord and savior. Is that enough? Or was I required to do jumping jacks while reciting the lord's prayer? Then they will say, as you did, that some never fully understand. If so and if he exists, I would call that a failure of the Holy Spirit to let a fervent believer slip away on a technicality. And if that's so, I would call that god unworthy of worship, at best, and at worst, not there at all.
Quote:And do you think that unto such as you;
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew:
God gave the secret, and denied it me?--
Well, well, what matters it! Believe that, too.
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We have lingered in the chambers of the sea | By sea-girls wreathed with seaweed red and brown | Till human voices wake us, and we drown. — T.S. Eliot
"... man always has to decide for himself in the darkness, that he must want beyond what he knows. ..." — Simone de Beauvoir
"As if that blind rage had washed me clean, rid me of hope; for the first time, in that night alive with signs and stars, I opened myself to the gentle indifference of the world. Finding it so much like myself—so like a brother, really—I felt that I had been happy and that I was happy again." — Albert Camus, "The Stranger"
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(April 14, 2011 at 5:45 pm)fr0d0 Wrote: Well EA it seems you demand satisfaction in a manner that denies the full answer already given.
I didn't demand satisfaction, frodo. I asked for understanding ... over and over. There's a difference between demanding and asking. It's only God in his capriciousness and bizarre moral code who demands things of us. Questions and apparent contradictions surrounding the nature of the Christian god are far from answered, such as:
What kind of god gives humans reasoning power and punishes some of those humans for actually using it?
Why couldn't God, if he was there, take five minutes out of his busy schedule to help me, in my stupyfied ignorance, understand after sincere pleading on my part?
How can God be both merciful and just? Or all-loving and omnipotent?
How could an all-loving god have created humans knowing full well the thousands of years of misery they would endure because of their "choice" to disobey him?
How did an omniscient god allow Satan into the Garden? Why did an all-powerful god allow Satan into the Garden? Was this to test man by placing a tree in the Garden and then saying, "Don't touch!" How can an all-loving god be that cruel? How could an all-loving god do all of that to Job and live with himself? Does God feel guilt? He should.
What kind of loving father demands you love him back and then makes you pass tests to show your love?
What kind of a loving father demands you love him back and also believe in his son or face eternal torment? What kind of loving father says you have free will, but gives you only two options on which to exercise that will?
What kind of loving father sends his son on a mission of martydom, when, presumably, if he was all-powerful and all-knowing, he could have come up with a more humane way? Or, simply say that all sins are forgiven outright. Why is god obsessed with blood sacrifice? Why does God require a blood sacrifice to atone for sins? He can't just forgive people since he's all-loving? If he has this limitation, he isn't all-powerful either.
How could an omniscient and all-powerful god let an obviously cobbled together work like the Bible be passed down to us as his authoritative word to humans? Presumably, he had the power to make sure that the Bible was non-contradictory, free from scientific and mathematical errors and not used to advance slavery, witch burning, the Crusades and the denial of condoms to people in Africa.
How could a god of love exist alongside Satan and his minions? Why doesn't God use his power to crush Satan and said minions right now? What's the hold up? Why didn't he take care of matters when Lucifer tried to seize power? Presumably, he could have crushed Satan then and there rather than cast him into hell, thus saving a lot of time and trouble of creating man, then watching him be tempted, then watching man suffer thousands of years of famine and wars, then coming up with a new covenant, then watching his son die a horrible death for our sins, sins that God knew we would commit before creating us, the whole bloody scenario also being fully in the mind of God before he created the first man.
---
We have lingered in the chambers of the sea | By sea-girls wreathed with seaweed red and brown | Till human voices wake us, and we drown. — T.S. Eliot
"... man always has to decide for himself in the darkness, that he must want beyond what he knows. ..." — Simone de Beauvoir
"As if that blind rage had washed me clean, rid me of hope; for the first time, in that night alive with signs and stars, I opened myself to the gentle indifference of the world. Finding it so much like myself—so like a brother, really—I felt that I had been happy and that I was happy again." — Albert Camus, "The Stranger"
---
April 15, 2011 at 12:13 am (This post was last modified: April 15, 2011 at 12:14 am by KichigaiNeko.)
(April 12, 2011 at 7:54 am)Zenith Wrote:
(April 12, 2011 at 2:45 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote:
(April 11, 2011 at 7:30 am)Zenith Wrote: P.S. It's not the Christian/Judaic bible that teaches pedophilia and beating of wives: it's the Qur'an & the Hadiths (Islam).
as well. judeo/ islamic/ xtianity = judslamanity???
Yes Zenith.. the abrahamic religions are the only ones with this god/boy.
I've written that because I know there is a verse in the qur'an that teaches a muslim to beat his wives if they do not obey him, I know that in the hadiths it is told that Muhammud married a 6 years old girl, and from some videos on youtube with muslims I've found out that Muhammud "consumed the marriage" (i.e. slept with her) since she was 9 (there must be another verse in the hadiths that I didn't read).
As about the christian/jewish bible, I don't know any verse to teach a man to beat his wives or to have sex with children, nor a prophet or something to have sex with a child.
So, if you know that the christian bible is the same in this matter as well, show me where it is written, so I'd check it out and see.
My sincere apologies Zenith... for the lateness of reply.
