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RE: The story of Noah' s Ark - or - God is dumber than you.
September 20, 2021 at 12:45 pm
(September 20, 2021 at 12:36 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: (September 20, 2021 at 10:04 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: They didn't...and..frankly, this is an absurd rejoinder in the context of a tall tale about the contents of a big bote. Do you also think that those same nomadic tribes understood naval architecture when they dreamt up the SS Miracle? Was some ancient meteorologist consulted on the specifics of the storm?
Absolutely nothing about the story pans out. There was no collecting animals, there was no boat, there was no deluge. None of it ever happened. There's no use coming up with ludicrous explanations for a thing that never happened.
You are making my point which is that the ancient writers and the early listeners would have first hand knowlegble and experience of animal management, certainly enough to see the absurdities much more clearly than most modern First World citizens. So yeah, it is pretty dumb to consider the deluge narative a factual account of actual events. Apart from literal minded fundamentalists and atheist trolls, I do not know anyone who thinks giving a factual account was ever the point of the story.
What is the point of the story?
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RE: The story of Noah' s Ark - or - God is dumber than you.
September 20, 2021 at 1:03 pm
(September 20, 2021 at 12:45 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: (September 20, 2021 at 12:36 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: You are making my point which is that the ancient writers and the early listeners would have first hand knowlegble and experience of animal management, certainly enough to see the absurdities much more clearly than most modern First World citizens. So yeah, it is pretty dumb to consider the deluge narative a factual account of actual events. Apart from literal minded fundamentalists and atheist trolls, I do not know anyone who thinks giving a factual account was ever the point of the story.
What is the point of the story?
Hope of redemption from evil Seems pretty clear to me even if the message appears to be built over a framework of oral story telling and likely incorporates cultural memory of pre-historic tragedy.
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RE: The story of Noah' s Ark - or - God is dumber than you.
September 20, 2021 at 1:11 pm
(September 20, 2021 at 12:36 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: So yeah, it is pretty dumb to consider the deluge narative a factual account of actual events. Apart from literal minded fundamentalists and atheist trolls, I do not know anyone who thinks giving a factual account was ever the point of the story.
Then the Gospel writers were also idiots or trolls because they included Noah in the genealogy of Jesus - meaning that at least one of Jesus' ancestors was just a metaphor.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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RE: The story of Noah' s Ark - or - God is dumber than you.
September 20, 2021 at 1:13 pm
(September 20, 2021 at 1:03 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: (September 20, 2021 at 12:45 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: What is the point of the story?
Hope of redemption from evil Seems pretty clear to me even if the message appears to be built over a framework of oral story telling and likely incorporates cultural memory of pre-historic tragedy.
Could you flesh that out a little bit?
What seems clear to you as a believer isn't quite so clear to me.
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RE: The story of Noah' s Ark - or - God is dumber than you.
September 20, 2021 at 1:20 pm
(September 20, 2021 at 12:36 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: (September 20, 2021 at 10:04 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: They didn't...and..frankly, this is an absurd rejoinder in the context of a tall tale about the contents of a big bote. Do you also think that those same nomadic tribes understood naval architecture when they dreamt up the SS Miracle? Was some ancient meteorologist consulted on the specifics of the storm?
Absolutely nothing about the story pans out. There was no collecting animals, there was no boat, there was no deluge. None of it ever happened. There's no use coming up with ludicrous explanations for a thing that never happened.
You are making my point which is that the ancient writers and the early listeners would have first hand knowlegble and experience of animal management, certainly enough to see the absurdities much more clearly than most modern First World citizens. So yeah, it is pretty dumb to consider the deluge narative a factual account of actual events. Apart from literal minded fundamentalists and atheist trolls, I do not know anyone who thinks giving a factual account was ever the point of the story.
That goes for the rest of the nonsense - cover to cover........
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RE: The story of Noah' s Ark - or - God is dumber than you.
September 20, 2021 at 1:41 pm
(September 20, 2021 at 1:03 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: (September 20, 2021 at 12:45 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: What is the point of the story?
Hope of redemption from evil Seems pretty clear to me even if the message appears to be built over a framework of oral story telling and likely incorporates cultural memory of pre-historic tragedy.
Epic of Gilgamesh?
And without delay Peter went quickly out of the synagogue (assembly) and went unto the house of Marcellus, where Simon lodged: and much people followed him...And Peter turned unto the people that followed him and said: Ye shall now see a great and marvellous wonder. And Peter seeing a great dog bound with a strong chain, went to him and loosed him, and when he was loosed the dog received a man's voice and said unto Peter: What dost thou bid me to do, thou servant of the unspeakable and living God? Peter said unto him: Go in and say unto Simon in the midst of his company: Peter saith unto thee, Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And immediately the dog ran and entered in, and rushed into the midst of them that were with Simon, and lifted up his forefeet and in a loud voice said: Thou Simon, Peter the servant of Christ who standeth at the door saith unto thee: Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou most wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And when Simon heard it, and beheld the incredible sight, he lost the words wherewith he was deceiving them that stood by, and all of them were amazed. (The Acts of Peter, 9)
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RE: The story of Noah' s Ark - or - God is dumber than you.
September 20, 2021 at 2:12 pm
(September 20, 2021 at 1:41 pm)Jehanne Wrote: (September 20, 2021 at 1:03 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: Hope of redemption from evil Seems pretty clear to me even if the message appears to be built over a framework of oral story telling and likely incorporates cultural memory of pre-historic tragedy.
Epic of Gilgamesh?
I find the possibility of a monomyth plausible...one that recalls wide-spread flooding from a post-Ice Age melt.
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RE: The story of Noah' s Ark - or - God is dumber than you.
September 20, 2021 at 2:36 pm
(September 20, 2021 at 2:12 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: (September 20, 2021 at 1:41 pm)Jehanne Wrote: Epic of Gilgamesh?
I find the possibility of a monomyth plausible...one that recalls wide-spread flooding from a post-Ice Age melt.
Per Wikipedia, "Curve fitting is the process of constructing a curve, or mathematical function, that has the best fit to a series of data points, possibly subject to constraints."
And without delay Peter went quickly out of the synagogue (assembly) and went unto the house of Marcellus, where Simon lodged: and much people followed him...And Peter turned unto the people that followed him and said: Ye shall now see a great and marvellous wonder. And Peter seeing a great dog bound with a strong chain, went to him and loosed him, and when he was loosed the dog received a man's voice and said unto Peter: What dost thou bid me to do, thou servant of the unspeakable and living God? Peter said unto him: Go in and say unto Simon in the midst of his company: Peter saith unto thee, Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And immediately the dog ran and entered in, and rushed into the midst of them that were with Simon, and lifted up his forefeet and in a loud voice said: Thou Simon, Peter the servant of Christ who standeth at the door saith unto thee: Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou most wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And when Simon heard it, and beheld the incredible sight, he lost the words wherewith he was deceiving them that stood by, and all of them were amazed. (The Acts of Peter, 9)
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RE: The story of Noah' s Ark - or - God is dumber than you.
September 20, 2021 at 4:07 pm
(This post was last modified: September 20, 2021 at 4:18 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(September 20, 2021 at 12:36 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: (September 20, 2021 at 10:04 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: They didn't...and..frankly, this is an absurd rejoinder in the context of a tall tale about the contents of a big bote. Do you also think that those same nomadic tribes understood naval architecture when they dreamt up the SS Miracle? Was some ancient meteorologist consulted on the specifics of the storm?
Absolutely nothing about the story pans out. There was no collecting animals, there was no boat, there was no deluge. None of it ever happened. There's no use coming up with ludicrous explanations for a thing that never happened.
You are making my point which is that the ancient writers and the early listeners would have first hand knowlegble and experience of animal management, certainly enough to see the absurdities much more clearly than most modern First World citizens. So yeah, it is pretty dumb to consider the deluge narative a factual account of actual events. Apart from literal minded fundamentalists and atheist trolls, I do not know anyone who thinks giving a factual account was ever the point of the story.
People believe all sorts of dumb things.
You, apparently, believed that the above was a good argument, for example. It never happened, but the people who come up with it certainly believed it did, and others after them, for all the usual reasons that anyone believes in any ignorant superstition. The urge to write out what comes to be seen as absurd and counter factual is understandable, but that's all it is.
Meanwhile, your question was one of who was likely to understand herding animals better - those nomads or contemporaries here on these boards. The answer to that is and remains and will always be..contemporary people - right here on these boards. The fact is betrayed when you acknowledge that you see it as absurd, because you do know better. They didn't, because they didn't know better...and you, for your part, won't even allow them the dignity of possessing those beliefs they did hold. All because you feel that it diminishes your equally silly contemporary beliefs, somehow.
No one's trolling you, and those fundies are absolutely right, when it's pointed out that this belief was literal. It's an incontrovertible fact of the history of the religion, it's myths, and it's adherents.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: The story of Noah' s Ark - or - God is dumber than you.
September 20, 2021 at 4:28 pm
(September 20, 2021 at 4:07 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: (September 20, 2021 at 12:36 pm)Neo-Scholastic Wrote: You are making my point which is that the ancient writers and the early listeners would have first hand knowlegble and experience of animal management, certainly enough to see the absurdities much more clearly than most modern First World citizens. So yeah, it is pretty dumb to consider the deluge narative a factual account of actual events. Apart from literal minded fundamentalists and atheist trolls, I do not know anyone who thinks giving a factual account was ever the point of the story.
People believe all sorts of dumb things.
You, apparently, believed that the above was a good argument, for example. It never happened, but the people who come up with it certainly believed it did, and others after them, for all the usual reasons that anyone believes in any ignorant superstition. The urge to write out what comes to be seen as absurd and counter factual is understandable, but that's all it is.
Meanwhile, your question was one of who was likely to understand herding animals better - those nomads or contemporaries here on these boards. The answer to that is and remains and will always be..contemporary people - right here on these boards. The fact is betrayed when you acknowledge that you see it as absurd, because you do know better. They didn't, because they didn't know better...and you, for your part, won't even allow them the dignity of possessing those beliefs they did hold. All because you feel that it diminishes your equally silly contemporary beliefs, somehow.
No one's trolling you, and those fundies are absolutely right, when it's pointed out that this belief was literal. It's an incontrovertible fact of the history of the religion, it's myths, and it's adherents.
How would you know that?
"Imagination, life is your creation."
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