Who has the power

[Spongebob]

I want to open a discussion about power.  Power will always exist in any society.  It's like energy; it cannot be created or destroyed; it only changes form.  So in the US at one time power was largely held by a lot of non-governmental, mostly criminal, groups.  Most of those have been either destroyed or reduced in power enough that they no longer influence society as much.  But that power shifted to the government, who put them down.  And many people seem to resent this, at least right wingers do.  Why is that?  Or is my idea of power just flawed completely?

[Angrboda]

How are you measuring power? What is your metric? That will determine whether power is zero-sum, as you contend, or not.

[brewer]

That's a very narrow minded take on power (or history of power) in the US.

I hearing dog whistles again.

[Spongebob]

How are you measuring power?  What is your metric?  That will determine whether power is zero-sum, as you contend, or not.

That's a good question.  I'm at a loss to state it empirically.  What I think of as power is who controls how people live.  For example, in the slave South, plantation owners controlled pretty much everything.  They set the rules and everyone had to abide by them.  Another example would be 19th and 20th century New York, where the mafia was so powerful that it controlled what many people could and couldn't do; to the point that they controlled aspects of the government.  I'm sure these are just two in many such groups.  And these are just recent American concepts of power.  More and probably better examples might be found elsewhere in time/space.

The reason I assert that power is zero-sum is that when power is removed from one group, it transfers to another, usually the one that intervened.  For a time after the Civil War, the occupying North held the power in the South, but then gave it back only a few short decades later.  The old plantation owners had power, lost it to the North, who then gave it back to white people in the South.  That power never went away, it only changed hands.

[tackattack]

Is this a discussion as to how to move the power dynamic, the sources of the power as a construct or why things be the way they be?

[brewer]

[The Grand Nudger]

For a time after the Civil War, the occupying North held the power in the South, but then gave it back only a few short decades later.  The old plantation owners had power, lost it to the North, who then gave it back to white people in the South.  That power never went away, it only changed hands.

Picking directly antithetical groups for comparison might lead us to believe in a zero sum game more than any two other examples would- but even here, here’s something to consider.

The us attempted to assert its power after the defeat of the confederacy- but if that’s an example of holding and using power then it would be more accurate to say that the us and the remnants of the confederacy shared power - as they were swinging their weight around too. The us didnt -give- anything back.

In the end, if you ask me, the south won that one- and even gained ground in its loss. The stars and bars fly all the way up to Canada, after all.

Any rate, I think a great approximation for who holds power in a society can be determined by prison demographics. Whatever they happen to be, the people in power are the opposite of that. Power may not actually be zero sum…but human beings can turn anything into a zero sum game, so…you know.

[vulcanlogician]

If we define "power" as "the ability to do something, acquire something, or affect the world," then I think we have to say that whoever has money has power. The federal gov't and capitalist classes have the power using this metric. Corporate institutions also have a great deal of power. The Catholic Church too; they not only have lots of money, they have an enormous institution through which they can enact change in the world.

[The Architect Of Fate]

[Spongebob]

Is this a discussion as to how to move the power dynamic, the sources of the power as a construct or why things be the way they be?

My question is more about the latter but feel free to explore any angle that makes sense.