Russia and Ukraine

[Deesse23]

So it is good to know exactly why they are doing this ...

Putin has said it: Ukraine is an artificial contruct. Its culturally part of Russia. To him it is not, and on the international stage stage should not be, a separate entity.
What more do you need?

As for what is necessary, in order to come to a lasting peace, based on mutual agreement, by signing treaties: Looks like Putin needs to understand that invading another country and targeting civilians once you figure your army sucks, is a "nono", period. I am confident we can figure out the rest from there.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Getting fed up with a lot of this rubbish. This isn’t a complicated war: Russia invaded Ukraine. Large swaths of the world have condemned the invasion and are assisting in Ukraine’s defense.

There really isn’t a lot more to it than that. Ukraine cozying up to NATO doesn’t justify the invasion. Neither does alleged Ukrainian corruption, the ‘de-nazification’ of Ukraine, the establishment of a Greater Russia - nothing.

Jeezus pleezus, this isn’t rocket surgery. It’s pretty clear who the bad guys are.

Boru

All true, but Russia won't be going away, even if its armed forces leave Ukraine.
So it is good to know exactly why they are doing this so that some lasting peace can be found with a proper agreement between the two neighboring countries.

Just saying that they are the bad guys won't solve anything, unless we (the West, NATO, the US) are willing to (invade? and) take over Russia's government.... which I' guessing we're not.


Of course, us discussing these things here will lead to nothing on the greater scheme of things. We are at the mercy of our politicians... that's their job and that's why we put them there.

Of course Russia isn't going away. Who said it was? 

We know exactly why Putin is doing this - Putin told us exactly why he's doing this.

Saying 'those are the bad guys' wasn't INTENDED to solve anything. It was merely pointing out that this isn't as much of a muddle as some people think.

There's no need to invade  and take over Russia to end the war and encourage reforms.

Here's a 'proper agreement':

Russia will withdraw ALL forces from Ukraine, recognize its territorial and political integrity, and agree to a not-too-arduous reparations scheme.  In return, Western countries will remove all economic sanctions from the Russian government, companies and people, and will agree to increase trade with Russia.

Boru

[The Grand Nudger]

The increased trade part will be difficult, russia just burnt a bunch of (to them)foreign companies that aren't going to want to do bidness with them anymore or without usurous terms (that's how they lost the aegis of int. protection, imo). Sucks, because russia wont be able to pay for any kind of rebuilding whatsoever in it's current state.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

The increased trade part will be difficult, russia just burnt a bunch of (to them)foreign companies that aren't going to want to do bidness with them anymore or without usurous terms (that's how they lost the aegis of int. protection, imo).  Sucks, because russia wont be able to pay for any kind of rebuilding whatsoever in it's current state.

That’s a doddle that can be worked out during Russia’s surrender.

Boru

[The Architect Of Fate]

I love how people like Bel treat America the way conspiracy nuts treat the Illuminati. So smart and powerful that they can do anything and everything. But are so stupid they allow the morons at the Greyzone to figure out their evil plans .....

[Leonardo17]

Getting fed up with a lot of this rubbish. This isn’t a complicated war: Russia invaded Ukraine. Large swaths of the world have condemned the invasion and are assisting in Ukraine’s defense.

There really isn’t a lot more to it than that. Ukraine cozying up to NATO doesn’t justify the invasion. Neither does alleged Ukrainian corruption, the ‘de-nazification’ of Ukraine, the establishment of a Greater Russia - nothing.

Jeezus pleezus, this isn’t rocket surgery. It’s pretty clear who the bad guys are.

Boru

   It is simple indeed. In fact, the very principle of democratic rule relies on the ability of the ordinary man to understand the main issues of the world that are usually very simple in nature.
   But since the 1930’s, human beings have been able to apply scientific methodology and the discoveries in areas like sociology and psychology in a bid to be able to control the behavior of human beings and in particular the behavior of masses. This technology is called propaganda. (There is a very good 1989 book by Noam Chomsky on that called “Necessary Illusions: Thought Control in Democratic Societies”.) In the 2000’s I watched a documentary with an elderly German Woman who was reporting how as a young women she had attended one of the public speeches of Adolf Hitler. The woman was saying ‘If in that moment, somebody had asked ‘who is ready to be immediately decapitated for our Führer’ any one of us would have jumped on the stage and showed his/her readiness to die for the Führer”. So As Albert Camus puts in in his book called “The Plague”, “The pest microbes are still present in some deep corner of our closets, waiting for the suitable time to come alive again”.
   And I am making this anecdote simply to remind everyone that this propaganda technology has evolved. If I am wrong, than how did they get a person like Donald Trump to be elected as the president of the U.S.? I am not going to elaborate on this methods, but one of these methods is to blur the mind of the opponent when you know you are unable to win them to your own side. And the method for this is the method of spreading pseudo realities. These are alternate realities that will not have an entirely convincing effect on the target population but will cause them to have doubts on some basic realities.
   I also agree that the effects of this aren’t going to be too great either. But these will still mess with our minds. Because, yes the issue is quite simple. But there are so many details, like Europe being dependent on Russian Gas, the economic and political instabilities in the UK, China’s role as a potential ally of Russia, my regular person of a leader who has just promessed to make me a gas hub of Europe like Kuwait of the UAE (I just cannot stop dreaming about it, in 5 year time I will be a sheikh with 5 Rolls-Royce or so…). So What I mean is, there are many interlinked subjects, and for un-educated minds like us (meaning people who do not have a college degree on political science or international relations), each one of these subjects is seen as a fertile ground where propaganda can be added to.
   They have many means for that now. Social media in particular. In my news channels I see for instance how they take some Kremlin images from 2015, put these videos in different context, put them on twitter, spread them and say something like “The Glorious Russian army’s most sophisticated Armata Tank is 2 hours away from Kiev” (for instance).
   So even if you don’t believe it, it will create unnecessary cluster in your mind and you may find yourself pondering on issues that aren’t even real while the real factual events that are truly happening are right there in front of your eyes and you don’t get to see them. Or at least that’s my theory on the subject. So my mind is a sacred temple. Just as I choose the most interesting books of the writers who have received many recommendations by well-known publishing houses etc. to read during the weekend, I prefer watch and read news channels that are references in their own area. I occasionally read other newer and less experienced news sources that I know to be independent and trustworthy sources but when I do that I will usually double-check these information with the more deep rooted news sources of the world.
   In a nutshell: My mind is not a garbage can in which anyone can decide to throw anything simply because they want to. I also try to keep is short and focused. Simple, basic and accurate information that is limited in both content and length seems to be the best option for me.

[Leonardo17]

there can’t be any place for unreliable sources of information or disinformation as we call it. If one goes into disinformation, or poor sources of information (anything other than most trustworthy, professional and independent media sources across the world, who present verifiable information in a clearly understandable and rational manner) you won’t understand anything actually.

I'm curious which sources of information you would recommend as accurate.

This might explain why our views on things are so different.

   I am glad to see that you truly recognize me as a person who is being polite with the other participants of this forum and quite respectful toward diverging ideas.
   I am not going to do any advertisement here. But even in the grocery store, I tend to buy less if I have to, but I’ll rather buy the vegetable with was produced in an organic and sustainable manner, that I know will be better for my overall health, rather than moving toward a more shiny and cheaper example of the same vegetable whose nutritious value tends to be much lower, who has been cultivated with a lot a pesticide etc. When I get shoes I try to get good shoes that will last for a few years rather than a cheap copy of the original that I will throw away in 5 or 6 months. So I am talking Big media here. But this does not include Fox New, or Sputnik News because for me “Big” is synonymous with independent, autonomous, who has a scientific approach (I want to be able to verify it, and I will want to compare it with other reliable media if I have doubts) etc. If I hear that that media channel is biased in any way, If it has links to any government, If it is withholding information, if it is breaking the ethics of journalism, there is a button for that on my search engine and I will not see it.
   For instance there is ukrayinska Pravda that is appearing every day. I didn’t block it. I read it sometimes, but my preference is for news companies with names. But this is a matter of time rather than being biased.
   Otherwise there is DOZHD. I am not a Russian speaker. But I know their history. It’s an independent news agency that was launched in 2010. Since February 2022 they are broadcasting from Riga in Latvia. And I know that there are several other independent Russian broadcasters in countries like Georgia, who have fled Russia, have set their studios in Tsiblissi, and are once again broadcasting in Russian language via Youtube (as far as I know).
 
Your second comment: During the January 2020 storming of the US capitol, a BBC reporter was asking a MAGA supporter “Do you believe the election was stolen”, The MAGA supporter said “Yes, from which new channel are you?”, She says “I’m from the BBC”, and the MAGA supporters said “That’s why you don’t believe the election was stolen”.

[Belacqua]

(There is a very good 1989 book by Noam Chomsky on that called “Necessary Illusions: Thought Control in Democratic Societies”.)

Chomsky's still around you know. 

His interviews on YouTube concerning Ukraine are very much recommended.

[Belacqua]

I am glad to see that you truly recognize me as a person who is being polite with the other participants of this forum and quite respectful toward diverging ideas.

Yes, this is very important for me. I realize that in this, as in most things, I am in the minority. But I appreciate your approach.

   I am not going to do any advertisement here. 

That's fair. It's wise, I think, not to give blanket approval to any individual channel or web site. 

Over the years we build up trust in individuals and give greater weight to what they have to say -- always remembering that anyone can be wrong. Sadly, the propagandists generally speak the loudest. 

[The Architect Of Fate]

Chomsky's still around you know. 

His interviews on YouTube concerning Ukraine are very much recommended.

Noam Chomsky has spent so long criticizing the US he's become blind to anything else and he's rightly been criticized for this.

https://www.e-flux.com/notes/470005/open...kraine-war

https://lithub.com/a-ukrainian-translato...-invasion/

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archiv...pt/671576/