Russia and Ukraine

[Thumpalumpacus]

I'm anti-war and pro-beating-the-shit-out-of-bullies.

[The Grand Nudger]

Shitty people should never make the mistake of believing that they're the most dangerous people in the room. They're not. A career offender killing for pay has nothing on a reluctant family man pushed to breaking point. Guys like that are basically rage genies. Every denied urge shoved into a tiny space, waiting to explode on whomever breaks the seal. Russia, in it's hubris, has manufactured an entire country full of them.

[Belacqua]

General Milley against endless war:

https://news.yahoo.com/general-milley-wa...36562.html

[The Architect Of Fate]

General Milley against endless war:

Yup endless war is bad. So general Miley should really go ask Russia to prevent one by withdrawing from Ukraine.

[The Architect Of Fate]

Also, Miley has also said Russia has lost the war or are you only him as a source when it's convenient to your agenda ....

https://www.businessinsider.com/top-us-g...war-2023-2

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

General Milley against endless war:

https://news.yahoo.com/general-milley-wa...36562.html

This isn’t much of a surprise. Most soldiers think war is a bad idea.

Boru

[Deesse23]

General Milley against endless war:

https://news.yahoo.com/general-milley-wa...36562.html

I am for a startless war. Bel evidently is not.

[pocaracas]

Do the Ukrainians want to be ruled by a Russian puppet government? I'd say that the 2014 revolution and subsequent elections suggest otherwise.

This seems like a good question to me. The answer depends in part on whom we define as "the Ukrainians." 

The Ukrainians in the eastern part of the country, especially in the regions that were added to Ukraine by Lenin in 1922, think of themselves as Russian. They speak Russian, they prefer a pro-Russian government, if not exactly a "puppet" one. 

Yeah... One could say the same about Crimea...
https://www.refworld.org/docid/469f38ec2.html

• Oct 18, 1921 The Soviet Union establishes the Crimean Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic within the Russian SFSR. The autonomous republic is run as a Tatar enclave within the Russian SFSR.
  
• May 18, 1944 Stalin begins mass deportation of Crimean Tatars from Crimea for collaborating with the Germans during World War II. Most are settled in Uzbekistan. It is estimated that as many as 46.2% of Crimean Tatars perished in the aftermath (Allworth 1988). (The low end of estimates put the number around 20%.)
  
• Jun 30, 1945 The Crimean Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic is stripped of its autonomous status as a result of the alleged crimes of the Crimean Tatar people during World War II. It becomes merely an oblast of the Russian SFSR. Russian emigration into the Crimea under Soviet authority has been going on since before the Great War, but Stalin accelerates the migration of Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians into Crimea in the aftermath of the Tatar resettlement.
  
• Apr 29, 1954 Under Khrushchev, the Soviet Union transfers the Crimea from the Russian SFSR to the Ukrainian SSR. This move is done in marking the 300th anniversary of the Pereiaslav Agreement which, in large part, marked the beginning of Ukrainian subjugation to the Muscovite Empire. The official party line has declared this the beginning of the long Russo-Ukrainian friendship.
  

And in 2014, Putin decides to undo this, but Ukraine was no longer in the USSR, just like it's not today, and nor is Easter Ukraine.
Because of that, there is no legitimacy undo what was done in the USSR days.

If the majority of the people in there want to be in Russia, then... those people need to interact with the central governments (Ukraine and Russia) and negotiate their departure. Did they?
If the Ukrainian central government doesn't want to give up that land, then I suppose they are in their right, much like the UK is in retaining Scotland or Spain is in retaining Catalonia. You see their motivation to support Ukraine in retaining its "breakaway" regions, huh?

Note that of the many people who have fled Ukraine in the past year, over 2 million have gone to Russia. 

If you lived all your life on the eastern part of Ukraine and spoke Russian, would you escape war by moving through extra war in the rest of Ukraine to Europe, or move towards Russia a few tens of km away?
People are pratical when it comes to staying alive, not patriotic.

All this to say that this statistic is not as meaningfull as you may want to make it seem.

Anyone who wants more tanks, more weapons, more fighting, is a childish macho man, and pro-war. Just because we don't like one side or the other, that doesn't make it anti-war to support more war.

Jee... I wonder which side first brought hundreds of thousads of troops in?

[Belacqua]

Yeah... One could say the same about Crimea...

That's true. Different regions change hands as history goes by. 

If the majority of the people in there want to be in Russia, then... those people need to interact with the central governments (Ukraine and Russia) and negotiate their departure. Did they?

They were told very clearly by Poroshenko that they would always be an oppressed minority. No doubt they felt it would be difficult to negotiate with someone like that. 

I agree that the best solution would be a peaceful democratic process to determine sovereignty. So far this has not been allowed by either side.

You have to remember that Ukrainian politics is deeply corrupt. Zelensky is corrupt, his sponsor, the oligarch Kolomoisky was corrupt. There has been no chance for fair democracy. This was common knowledge until last year, at which time the anti-Russian press decided that there are no Nazis and Zelensky is purity itself.

If you lived all your life on the eastern part of Ukraine and spoke Russian, would you escape war by moving through extra war in the rest of Ukraine to Europe, or move towards Russia a few tens of km away?
People are pratical when it comes to staying alive, not patriotic.

All this to say that this statistic is not as meaningfull as you may want to make it seem. 

Of course, you'd go where you speak the language, where you know you are more likely to be welcomed. 

I don't see it as purely patriotic to go where it's safer. There's a reason why Russian-speaking Ukrainians don't feel safe in Ukraine under recent governments. 

Jee... I wonder which side first brought hundreds of thousads of troops in?

Both sides are guilty of violence. It's overly simple to say that Russia started something out of the blue, simply as a land grab or out of Hitler-like hunger for power. 

Putin stated two clear objectives for the war, which are exactly what people had been predicting for decades. It would have been better for Russia to settle these things peacefully, but America made it clear that Russia's interests would not be considered. It would have been better for the US to keep its hands off, not interfere in Ukraine's business, not directly threaten Russia, not take steps clearly intended to weaken Russia. The US has invaded countries with far less justification. This doesn't mean other countries should follow America's lead, but it makes American criticism hypocritical.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Both sides are guilty of violence. It's overly simple to say that Russia started something out of the blue, simply as a land grab or out of Hitler-like hunger for power. 

Ukraine is not "guilty" of violence. It is using violent means to defend itself, because the Russians refuse to pay attention to anything else. It's sad to see how brainwashed you are.