Russia and Ukraine

[Irreligious Atheist]

If I say I want to stay out of it, I am not morally responsible for what someone else chooses to do.

If the Ukrainians are willing to fight for their freedoms, show us how supporting them is immoral. The Russians will not resort to nukes simply for us supplying Ukraine with weaponry, else they would have done so already. For that reason I find your hand-wringing entirely unconvincing. I also find it interesting how closely it mirrors Kremlin threats that have been shown empty thus far.

I just responded to this in my post to Helios, but yes, Ukraine wanted a peace deal, so less death is better imo. You were responding to me talking about shooting down Russian planes rather than supporting them with weaponry, but in that case, us supporting them with weaponry is causing tens of thousands more deaths and we discouraged Ukraine from making a peace deal when they wanted to, and that's why I consider it to be immoral. It's pretty straight forward, I think.

And you say.. if the Ukrainians.. well, they are not in NATO, and we're not god, so that settles that.

Also, did everyone buy into George W. Bush's you're either with us or you're against us spiel? That's I think over 5 people now that have spat out George W Bush speak to me. In 20 years, are you guys going to be spitting out Trump sayings next, I wonder? I don't like Putin. I love the Great Satan America. I don't love all of its' foreign policy decisions, but I love the spirit of 1776 and I've got a flag in my living room that has half the Canadian flag on it, and half the American flag on the other. I'm fully allied with the great Satan and not Putin, but, I am going to speak out when I don' agree with the great Satan's decisions. And I know it wasn't your insult, but I wish people knew how little it stung to tell a bisexual person like myself that I like to suck pee pees. Just makes me chuckle. I'm afraid that insult only works on the straights.

[Rev. Rye]

And yet, even if you’re right that the Ukrainians wanted peace and Boris Johnson buggered it up, they seem to have since grown extremely grateful. How grateful? His approval ratings in Ukraine are 90%. They’re just barely below Zelinsky’s and easily well above the highest he ever had domestically (for good reasons). Hell, while I can’t find much information on the historical approval ratings of British PMs, I’d be legit shocked if anyone after V-E Day ever reached 90%, and I’m not even convinced Churchill even reached that level.

[Irreligious Atheist]

People were giving the narrative that they want what Ukraine wants. Well, that's not true, because now people are saying they are glad the West stepped in to damper a peace deal. I just want people to stay logically consistent. Yes, the peace deal may not have worked out or fallen apart. I can admit that, but we should have let them at least try. If we're just trying to weaken Russia financially like we did by funding and building up the Mujahideen, that's one way to go as well, and one could even make the argument that this is the smarter way to go in the long run, and that using tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians as cannon fodder is the way to go for the betterment of the geopolitical positioning of NATO. Sure. One can logically make all of those arguments and maybe they are right. It just depends what you value more. Tens of thousands/hundreds of thousands of lives, or a weaker Russia. I've made my choice which one I think is more moral, but of course, I don't expect foreign policy coming from the West to be moral. I know better.

I think we're just going to have to accept that our brains work in very different ways. You have a very all or nothing, witch hunt mindset, and I do not. I respect Putin's strength in the same way I respect Kim Jun Uns strength. We wouldn't go in and screw with North Korea, because of what that would mean for South Korea. Could be a mass loss of South Korean lives in bombings. When you heard the youtuber Mr. Girl say he has felt attraction to underage girls, you basically called for a witch hunt, because that's your all or nothing mindset. When I heard Mr. Girl say he's felt that attraction, it only made me gain respect for his level of honesty, and now I'm watching Mr. Girls videos all the time, weekly, and he's won me over to the point where he's probably a top 5 favourite youtuber of mine now, and I identify as a proud 'horse' (yes, Mr. Girl calls his fanbase horses now). The dude is extremely intelligent. Honesty like that wins me over and shows me the sincerity in someone, and that they're not just here to BS me and give me the base line propaganda. So yeah, I think that right there in a nutshell is the difference between our philosophies and how our brains work.

[The Architect Of Fate]

Repeating the same empty talking points over and over won't make them any more rational or true 

[The Architect Of Fate]

And yet, even if you’re right that the Ukrainians wanted peace and Boris Johnson buggered it up, they seem to have since grown extremely grateful. How grateful? His approval ratings in Ukraine are 90%. They’re just barely below Zelinsky’s and easily well above the highest he ever had domestically (for good reasons). Hell, while I can’t find much information on the historical approval ratings of British PMs, I’d be legit shocked if anyone after V-E Day ever reached 90%, and I’m not even convinced Churchill even reached that level.

Your talking to a broken record Rye Rye 

[The Architect Of Fate]

So let's sum up

1. The west is in the right no matter what else it's got going on 

2. Putin is a total monster who needs a bloody nose to teach him a lesson 

3. There isn't going to be WW3 if there is a no-fly -zone  and Russia is never going to use its nukes 

4. Peace at any price is a stupid doctrine and appeasement never works and Putin can't be trusted till his military presence in Ukraine has been smashed.

5. Ukraine can and must win the war for its survival 

6. Noam Chomsky has gone senile 

7. IA doesn't know shit about this subject but is willing to ignorantly waffle on about it

These are the facts

[Irreligious Atheist]

Again, Helios pretending he won without actually responding to any of my points. May as well have just posted a cute gif like usual.

And "you're either with us or you're against us." Where else have we heard that line of reasoning? NFL players kneeling to the national anthem, maybe? They got the same pushback. I know you may not like it much, but being a member of a Western democracy means you get to have an opinion on matters, and that doesn't make you a traitor to your country or your allies. And since you bring up Chomsky, when did Chomsky ever support a war or proxy war with Russia, and when did he change his position?

[The Grand Nudger]

It remains a fact that russia, and not the west, is conscripting ukranians as cannon fodder. Is that a bad thing?

[Thumpalumpacus]

If the Ukrainians are willing to fight for their freedoms, show us how supporting them is immoral. The Russians will not resort to nukes simply for us supplying Ukraine with weaponry, else they would have done so already. For that reason I find your hand-wringing entirely unconvincing. I also find it interesting how closely it mirrors Kremlin threats that have been shown empty thus far.

I just responded to this in my post to Helios, but yes, Ukraine wanted a peace deal, so less death is better imo. You were responding to me talking about shooting down Russian planes rather than supporting them with weaponry, but in that case, us supporting them with weaponry is causing tens of thousands more deaths and we discouraged Ukraine from making a peace deal when they wanted to, and that's why I consider it to be immoral. It's pretty straight forward, I think.

The Ukrainians have chosen to fight for their freedoms. Your little backside in Montreal or Toronto or wherever ... what does that mean to them? They don't want Chamberlain's counsel which you have on offer, obviously. So this whole Chomsky/IA "this is an American stratagem foisted upon them" looks really weak.

Also, did everyone buy into George W. Bush's you're either with us or you're against us spiel? That's I think over 5 people now that have spat out George W Bush speak to me.

I haven't written or inferred any such thing, so quit being dishonest placing words into my mouth. Or, alternatively, you can link to the specific post where you think I wrote that.

Oh, that's right, you can't, because I've not done that.

I notice you still haven't explained why supporting Ukrainians in their fight for autonomy, freedom, and life is an immoral act. I trust you'll pull your head out and get to that sometime in the next few months?

Or maybe not. You don't strike me as terribly bright.

[The Architect Of Fate]

Again, Helios pretending he won without actually responding to any of my points. May as well have just posted a cute gif like usual.

And "you're either with us or you're against us." Where else have we heard that line of reasoning? NFL players kneeling to the national anthem, maybe? They got the same pushback. I know you may not like it much, but being a member of a Western democracy means you get to have an opinion on matters, and that doesn't make you a traitor to your country or your allies.

Your points have been addressed over and over again. You're simply repeating yourself. There is nothing more to this really. You got nothing. So why should I continue to waste my time addressing what's already been addressed? But of course, you will assert they were not addressed because otherwise, you would have to acknowledge all the above and there is no way in hell your going to do that 

And you cap off your nonsense with a strawman how typical...