Posts: 67175
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
162
RE: Russia and Ukraine
January 15, 2024 at 6:48 pm
(This post was last modified: January 15, 2024 at 6:54 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Do we think more young russians or more young ukranians fled? Meanwhile, the russians that fled actually did face conscription while whatever young men and women left ukraine do not. Ukraine is younger than russia, and ukraine shields it's young male and female population from conscription. The ukranian government realizes this issue will be severe, so they took action - while the russian regime doesn't give a shit, start over again at the beginning.
The idea that ukraine has worse dempographics than russia is, yet again, part of the firehose of russian misinformation people take as factual. The aim is to foster an impression of a soviet-alike inevitably by (correctly) stating that russia has many more "fighting age males". A superficial truth, since the "fighting age males" of russia are untrained, 8-80, blind..crippled, or crazy...and a merc to the very last (replacement) man.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 464
Threads: 12
Joined: August 28, 2023
Reputation:
3
RE: Russia and Ukraine
January 15, 2024 at 6:54 pm
(January 15, 2024 at 6:48 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Do we think more young russians or more young ukranians fled? Meanwhile, the russians that fled actually did face conscription while whatever young men and women left ukraine do not. Ukraine is younger than russia, and ukraine shields it's young male and female population from conscription. The ukranian government realizes this issue will be severe, so they took action - while the russian regime doesn't give a shit, start over again at the beginning.
The idea that ukraine has worse dempographics than russia is, yet again, part of the firehose of russian misinformation people take as factual.
Yes, I can see what you mean. Russia seems to spread a lot of misinformation around, to its people and maybe others outside of it; not that it is going to help them in this war in any way there is, especially if they end up losing.
Posts: 19789
Threads: 57
Joined: September 24, 2010
Reputation:
85
RE: Russia and Ukraine
January 15, 2024 at 6:59 pm
(This post was last modified: January 15, 2024 at 7:02 pm by Anomalocaris.)
Between 1-2 million Russians fled, or at most 1/3 as many Russians as Ukrainians fled, out of a pre-war population 3.5 times bigger. So the escape problem is at least 10 times worse for Ukraine than for Russia. Which is not entirely surprising as the war is not fought on Russian territory regardless of exaggerated story of Ukrainian pin pricks against Russian territory.
Posts: 67175
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
162
RE: Russia and Ukraine
January 15, 2024 at 7:02 pm
(This post was last modified: January 15, 2024 at 7:04 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
@ ShinyCrystals
That's the only way it works. Russian people don't believe the bullshit their government spews, it's not for domestic consumption. They're two decades further along, at least, than our own us reich wing in a post truth world. The war widows know they aren't getting paid - doesn't matter what the talking heads say on state tv, but that's not going to change their mind on a war for profit. They're trading their drunk, unemployed, and abusive husbands for a lada.
@ Anomalocaris
I doubt anything productive will come from our disagreement as we inhabit wholly separate universes complete with alternative facts.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 464
Threads: 12
Joined: August 28, 2023
Reputation:
3
RE: Russia and Ukraine
January 15, 2024 at 7:03 pm
(January 15, 2024 at 6:59 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote: Between 1-2 million Russians fled, or at most 1/3 as many Russians as Ukrainians fled, out of a pre-war population 3.5 times bigger. So the escape problem is at least 10 times worse for Ukraine than for Russia. Which is not entirely surprising as the war is not fought on Russian territory regardless of exaggerated story of Ukrainian pin pricks against Russian territory.
Do you have any sources for this, as @ Thumpalumpacus asked for before?
Posts: 23026
Threads: 26
Joined: February 2, 2010
Reputation:
106
RE: Russia and Ukraine
January 15, 2024 at 7:03 pm
(This post was last modified: January 15, 2024 at 7:09 pm by Thumpalumpacus.)
(January 15, 2024 at 6:59 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote: Between 1-2 million Russians fled, or at most 1/3 as many Russians as Ukrainians fled, out of a pre-war population 3.5 times bigger. So the escape problem is at least 10 times worse for Ukraine than for Russia. Which is not entirely surprising as the war is not fought on Russian territory regardless of exaggerated story of Ukrainian pin pricks against Russian territory.
2nd 3rd request: source for these numbers?
Document your claim.
Posts: 19789
Threads: 57
Joined: September 24, 2010
Reputation:
85
RE: Russia and Ukraine
January 15, 2024 at 7:15 pm
(January 15, 2024 at 7:03 pm)ShinyCrystals Wrote: (January 15, 2024 at 6:59 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote: Between 1-2 million Russians fled, or at most 1/3 as many Russians as Ukrainians fled, out of a pre-war population 3.5 times bigger. So the escape problem is at least 10 times worse for Ukraine than for Russia. Which is not entirely surprising as the war is not fought on Russian territory regardless of exaggerated story of Ukrainian pin pricks against Russian territory.
Do you have any sources for this, as @Thumpalumpacus asked for before?
The source is not hard to find, you can google Ukrainian and Russian emigration since 2022. Without knowing what those numbers are, without considering what impact these numbers can have, and on ad hoc basis calling it Russian propaganda when it is presented, does show how some people formulate their views.
Posts: 67175
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
162
RE: Russia and Ukraine
January 15, 2024 at 7:16 pm
(This post was last modified: January 15, 2024 at 7:21 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
The underlying situation is easy to document as a consequence of failed soviet policies that both countries share leading to an aging population. The escape thing is actually just as easy -it's about the same number of people for both countries - and less than a million in both cases. OFC, it was "military age fighting males" fleeing russia..and older woman with younger children fleeing ukraine. That's why russia has had to scrape the bottom of the prison barrel for troops.
The views and numbers and assertions you've dropped here are very literally russian propaganda, Anom. I get that you think they also happen to be true..but, it is what it is. Don't get me wrong, there may come a time that ukraine is so desperate that any concern for this is utterly abandoned. Maybe as a consequence of appealing to white supremacists in the united states, even, which seems to be what they're hanging their hopes on right now. IIRC they've been talking about lowering conscription age to 25 (or already did..I'm days behind). That's just not how things have been going thusfar.....lol.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 464
Threads: 12
Joined: August 28, 2023
Reputation:
3
RE: Russia and Ukraine
January 15, 2024 at 7:19 pm
(January 15, 2024 at 7:15 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote: (January 15, 2024 at 7:03 pm)ShinyCrystals Wrote: Do you have any sources for this, as @Thumpalumpacus asked for before?
The source is not hard to find, you can google Ukrainian and Russian emigration since 2022. Without knowing what those numbers are, without considering what impact these numbers can have, and on ad hoc basis calling it Russian propaganda when it is presented, does show how some people formulate their views.
Nice try, but by my experience, many people say things like that to try and avoid the question or posting sources. Now, if you don't want me to disbelieve you, why not post an actual source yourself?
Posts: 23026
Threads: 26
Joined: February 2, 2010
Reputation:
106
RE: Russia and Ukraine
January 15, 2024 at 7:22 pm
(This post was last modified: January 15, 2024 at 7:25 pm by Thumpalumpacus.)
(January 15, 2024 at 7:15 pm)Anomalocaris Wrote: (January 15, 2024 at 7:03 pm)ShinyCrystals Wrote: Do you have any sources for this, as @Thumpalumpacus asked for before?
The source is not hard to find, you can google Ukrainian and Russian emigration since 2022. Without knowing what those numbers are, without considering what impact these numbers can have, and on ad hoc basis calling it Russian propaganda when it is presented, does show how some people formulate their views.
1) It is not my job to search out your sources for you.
2) You haven't even defined your terms, so I'd have no idea where to start looking for your sources.
3) I am an adherent of Hitchens's Razor. I think anyone who refuses to support their own claims with verifiable reports doesn't deserve serious consideration -- especially when their analyses are so deeply flawed as are yours.
|
