Russia and Ukraine

[Sheldon]

There are conflicting reports out of Ukraine today.

One member of the Ukrainian Parliament, the Chairman of the National Defense and Intelligence Committee, says that arms shipments from the US have been halted, pending unspecified "political decisions." But a different member of parliament says that's not true.

https://ukrainetoday.org/some-companies-...kraine-mp/

Zelensky has recently said that "Ukraine has a “very low chance of survival” without U.S. weapons."

https://www.yahoo.com/news/cannot-surviv...34924.html

So the pro-war faction must feel themselves in a very precarious position. The ability to continue the war is hanging by a thread, and apparently Elon Musk is holding the scissors.

This is the beauty of having two political parties in the US, both of which work for the military industrial complex. When one party commits to sending billions, the parties switch after a little while and then they can just ignore prior commitments. When somebody decides that enough money has gone to the weapons industry for this particular conflict, they can walk away and -- who cares about "victory" or "defeat." The Taliban knew that if they held on long enough the US would get bored and walk away, and that's what happened. A couple of trillion wasted, a million lives ruined for no good reason -- eh, time to stop. No doubt Putin remembers this, because his memory goes all the way back to 2021.

"The Taliban knew that if they held on long enough the US would get bored and walk away2

You seem to know what everyone thinks, is it a special power you have? I have to look for evidence before I can decide, how lucky you seem to be, to be able to pluck this stuff out of thin air. FWIW whether the US led invasion of Afghanistan was a justifiable war or not, Putin's invasion of Ukraine clearly has no justification, beyond the imperial pretensions of a dictator, it is simply appalling to withdraw support from Ukraine, and make deals with that dictator, and though I don't have your powers to read everyone else's mind, I'd bet my house, that if Trump stabs Ukraine in the back, and gives Putin what he wants, we will have to face off against him again, and he will be much harder to stop.

If only there were some historical precedents, that gave clues on how best to handle ruthless bullying dictators. Sadly we now seem to have just such a man in the Whitehouse.

[Thumpalumpacus]

If only there were some historical precedents, that gave clues on how best to handle ruthless bullying dictators.

1938 called, it has a great idea about how not to handle them.

Would Chamberlain be face-palming right now? I think so, after learning the hard way.

[Sheldon]

If only there were some historical precedents, that gave clues on how best to handle ruthless bullying dictators.

1938 called, it has a great idea about how not to handle them.

Would Chamberlain be face-palming right now? I think so, after learning the hard way.

And lets not forget the Germans didn't blow their first chance, and jailed their would be dictator, when he tried to take over their fledgling democracy by force, in violation of the constitution, a chance the US has lost forever now I fear. 

They'd better wake up to the danger soon, before the Whitehouse is rebranded Trumphouse, and US Troops are goosestepping past on his birthday...

[Deesse23]

So the pro-war faction [...]

There aren't any "pro-war" Ukrainians; they'd just as soon be left the hell alone. Problem is, there are pro-war Russians, starting with Putin, and it's kinda hard to be independent when another country, is, you know, shooting missiles at your energy infrastructure in the middle of winter.

You punch me in the face, I'm gonna go pro-kickyourass on you. Your framing is slipshod bullshit, and if you really believe it you would live on your knees. Most people think freedom's worth fighting for.

Your mileage clearly varies.

I remain unconvinced that Bel is who and what he claims to be. If the situation will change dramatically soon, as can be suspected, he will show his true colors soon as well.

[Rev. Rye]

To compare Trump to Chamberlain is an insult to Chamberlain, for several reasons:

1. At the time, nobody wanted a repeat of the Great War 20 years prior. “Peace in Our Time” is exactly what most people wanted.
   
2. Hitler actually had control of his own narrative at that point and could at least look fairly reasonable. 
   
3. Chamberlain figured out pretty early on what Hitler wanted, even telling him “If I've understood you correctly then you're determined in any event to proceed against Czechoslovakia. If that is your intention, why have you had me coming to Berchtesgaden at all? Under these circumstances it's best if I leave straight away. Apparently, it's all pointless,”
   
4. Chamberlain seemed to treat it as more of a stop-gap than anything else, even if he ultimately dropped the ball there. And even when he actually declared war in 1939, it went so fucking slowly that people called it The Phony War. 
   
5. Most importantly: Chamberlain seems to have understood that Hitler winning would be a bad thing, unlike Trump.
   

You’ll notice that none of these work for the situation these days, except maybe that #3 is tempered by #5.

[Ivan Denisovich]

1938 called, it has a great idea about how not to handle them.

Would Chamberlain be face-palming right now? I think so, after learning the hard way.

And lets not forget the Germans didn't blow their first chance, and jailed their would be dictator, when he tried to take over their fledgling democracy by force, in violation of the constitution, a chance the US has lost forever now I fear. 

They'd better wake up to the danger soon, before the Whitehouse is rebranded Trumphouse, and US Troops are goosestepping past on his birthday...

They did blow their chance though. Otherwise Hitler would be hanged and not sentenced for a few years in prison for putsch.

[Rev. Rye]

1938 called, it has a great idea about how not to handle them.

Would Chamberlain be face-palming right now? I think so, after learning the hard way.

And lets not forget the Germans didn't blow their first chance, and jailed their would be dictator, when he tried to take over their fledgling democracy by force, in violation of the constitution, a chance the US has lost forever now I fear. 

They'd better wake up to the danger soon, before the Whitehouse is rebranded Trumphouse, and US Troops are goosestepping past on his birthday...

They didn’t so much jail him as sentenced him and some of his friends to a goddam writers retreat that just happened to be in a prison. The Weimar-era judiciary was very conservative to the point of being alarmingly sympathetic to the Beer Hall Putschers. The way my German a history teacher talked about it, well, are you familiar with the Rubin Report? Imagine the way Dave Rubin handles far-right figures on his show, the kind who’d probably want him dead just for being a gay Jew but they play nice with him anyway because he’s going to whitewash their reputations.



That’s basically how they treated him. And if he didn’t admit to attempting to overthrow the government, he wouldn’t have even been sentenced to what he got. Sentenced to five years, only served nine months.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Sen. Thom Tillis (R-N.C.) slammed Russian President Vladimir Putin as a “cancer” not long after President Trump stepped up his criticism of Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky amid the ongoing Russia-Ukraine war.

“Look, I’m a Republican, I support President Trump, and I believe that most of his policies on national security are right. I believe his instincts are pretty good,” Tillis said Thursday on the Senate floor while warning of global turmoil.

“But what I’m telling you: Whoever believes that there is any space for Vladimir Putin in the future of a stable globe better go to Ukraine. They better go to Europe; they better invest the time to understand that this man is a cancer and the greatest threat to democracy in my lifetime,” he added.

Trump has sought to pin blame on Zelensky in recent days for the ongoing war, which began in earnest following Russia’s invasion of Ukraine in 2022.

[...]

“It will be a cancer that spreads into the South China Sea, into Taiwan, and metastasized across the globe,” the North Carolina lawmaker said of Putin’s efforts to gain territory.

“So, ladies and gentlemen, when I tell you that Vladimir Putin is a liar, a murderer and a man responsible for ordering the systematic torture, kidnapping, and rape of innocent civilians, believe me — because the evidence is mile high.”

https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/5157...in-russia/

Now let's see these guys show some spine and stand up to Trump.

[Rev. Rye]

To compare Trump to Chamberlain is an insult to Chamberlain, for several reasons:

1. At the time, nobody wanted a repeat of the Great War 20 years prior. “Peace in Our Time” is exactly what most people wanted.
   
2. Hitler actually had control of his own narrative at that point and could at least look fairly reasonable. 
   
3. Chamberlain figured out pretty early on what Hitler wanted, even telling him “If I've understood you correctly then you're determined in any event to proceed against Czechoslovakia. If that is your intention, why have you had me coming to Berchtesgaden at all? Under these circumstances it's best if I leave straight away. Apparently, it's all pointless,”
   
4. Chamberlain seemed to treat it as more of a stop-gap than anything else, even if he ultimately dropped the ball there. And even when he actually declared war in 1939, it went so fucking slowly that people called it The Phony War. 
   
5. Most importantly: Chamberlain seems to have understood that Hitler winning would be a bad thing, unlike Trump.
   

You’ll notice that none of these work for the situation these days, except maybe that #3 is tempered by #5.

I forgot to add another point about the comparison between what happened now and in Munich in 1938:

6. The majority of Germans in the Sudetenland, the part of Czechoslovakia most in question at the Munich peace talks, actually wanted to be part of Germany (due in no small part to Hitler still having control over his own narrative by this point, plus disenfranchisement by the Czech-speaking majority in the wake of the dissolution of Austria-Hungary in 1918). 

If this were true of the people of Ukraine, do you seriously think they would have fought for their country this fucking hard for the past three years?

[Ravenshire]

Sen. Thom Tillis (R-N.C.) slammed Russian President Vladimir Putin as a “cancer” not long after President Trump stepped up his criticism of Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky amid the ongoing Russia-Ukraine war.

“Look, I’m a Republican, I support President Trump, and I believe that most of his policies on national security are right. I believe his instincts are pretty good,” Tillis said Thursday on the Senate floor while warning of global turmoil.

“But what I’m telling you: Whoever believes that there is any space for Vladimir Putin in the future of a stable globe better go to Ukraine. They better go to Europe; they better invest the time to understand that this man is a cancer and the greatest threat to democracy in my lifetime,” he added.

Trump has sought to pin blame on Zelensky in recent days for the ongoing war, which began in earnest following Russia’s invasion of Ukraine in 2022.

[...]

“It will be a cancer that spreads into the South China Sea, into Taiwan, and metastasized across the globe,” the North Carolina lawmaker said of Putin’s efforts to gain territory.

“So, ladies and gentlemen, when I tell you that Vladimir Putin is a liar, a murderer and a man responsible for ordering the systematic torture, kidnapping, and rape of innocent civilians, believe me — because the evidence is mile high.”

https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/5157...in-russia/

Now let's see these guys show some spine and stand up to Trump.

If any of those assholes have a spine, it's one they pulled from a box of Banquet chicken.