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[Serious] Giving up the fight
#11
RE: Giving up the fight
Yeah, further to what Goosebump has said, I should probably add that, in my case, time has seen my family's attitudes mellow a little bit, nothing radical, but still noticeable change... little compromises... so in my experience, it does get better, albeit gradually. And just to be clear, by letting it be I didn't mean so much 'writing them off' as accepting them as they are, and likewise not so much writing them off as incapable of change, but choosing not to mentally invest in either hoping for/expecting that change or being an instrument of it.

Similar to how I feel about smoking; as someone who quit smoking a few years ago it always saddens me to see some of my friends still smoking, but at the same time, I know that quitting smoking is an intensely personal decision that no-one else can make for you - it only happens if or when you're ready in yourself, so as much as I'd like to encourage and help them to quit, I ultimately realise that's not my call and I'm not responsible for that. The most I can/do do is the odd nudge here or there, but with no pressure. So with that approach it came as an absolute joy to me when one day out of the blue a friend told me that he had quit. Since there had been no expectation on my part it came as a complete surprise, and that only made it even more joyful. He's been off smoking for a month or two now, and it's wonderful, so it's not that I didn't hope for change in some sense, but just that I wasn't invested in/dependent on that hope, such that it came as total pleasant surprise when my friend did quit.

Anyway, like Goosebump said, people can understand parts of each other without getting the whole, and I agree. I love my family and they love me, that much is not in doubt at all... realistically I doubt very much they will ever embrace the homosexuality, but that is not the be all and end all of me nor is their homophobia the be all and end all of them. According to a lot of Buddhist philosophy, it's concentrating on labels that brings division, but looking beyond them that unites, and I find that quite inspiring, and wish I could put it into practice more often.

One last thing is, both in my family's case, and I would guess yours also, there's no way a situation like this can't fail to create some sort of cognitive dissonance... some mental conflicts that people have to resolve and adapt to, one way or the other, so I think that kind of ensures it will bring change, and since people can't easily just write off love/family, I think there is reason to hope that that change will ultimately be positive; it may take some time, and compromise, and compartmentalising etc, but hopefully in the end you'll find some way to peacefully coexist/come together.
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#12
RE: Giving up the fight
(February 16, 2022 at 8:34 am)Ten Wrote: January 31st, I came out as trans on FB. I'm finally getting thin enough that I feel confident in passing and I didn't want to hide it anymore. Surprisingly, a lot of support from unexpected places. The expected pushback came from certain family who insist on deadnaming me in comments and messages. I haven't talked to them one on one yet and I feel tired at the prospect. Call it ADHD fatigue/anxiety over the confrontation, or cal it acceptance that I'll never change their minds, so, why bother trying.

Recently, I've gotten into Rebecca Watson on Youtube and she's great, but I watched a few of her videos about studies on comparisons between atheists and theists, and this very interesting video she did regarding those who deny the reliability of the Covid vaccines. It's rooted in emotion. That's why when you refute their facts, they don't see reason. They just find new facts to support their core bias. Like a lot of argumentative theists do. 

The fact is, I will never convince them that when I was out in BYU-I and at my peak religiosity, I was trying my hardest and desperately wanted to be a good daughter of God. Obviously, to them, I didn't try hard enough, and the revelation of my trans status is a culmination of justifications about how I never truly had faith and never actually wanted to be obedient and worthy. It will never be "enough" because emotionally, they've sunk 50+ years into their faith and they see their results just fine. So it is always going to be me who didn't work the program right. Just like if you pray to know if the BoM is true and you get an answer that it's not, well, you just didn't do it right, man. There is only ever one answer and I am wrong.

Anyway... I am not sure how active I'll be much more because it not only has to do with my bigoted Mormon family members but in general, I'm not in the spirit of pointlessly arguing with theists who we already acknowledge, "don't have a good reason for believing". Dead Horse 

This is kinda my "shower thoughts not suitable for FB" garbage dump until I can find someplace better. But here, as promised, thin me. I'm not to my goal of 150 lbs. yet but I'm getting there.

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#13
RE: Giving up the fight
(February 16, 2022 at 9:48 am)emjay Wrote: Hang in there Hug I understand how you feel... I've often felt similar. In my case some of my family have an ostrich-like approach not only to gay issues but also atheism, so their tendency is to pre-emptively shut down any conversation that could even potentially threaten their beliefs/world view. So when I came to this site, at first it was a welcome change; seeing theists actually willing to expose themselves to and address uncomfortable issues... and at the beginning, arguing/debating with them was quite therapeutic for me. But as time wore on, I kind of came to the conclusion, it wasn't that much different - ostrich or no, the door wasn't really open for many, so now I have a much more Buddhist/stoic approach to it all, of just let it be. I know that's probably easier said than done in some situations, especially if they're actively being a dick, and I'm so sorry that they are for you Sad, and in any case it's probably not for everyone, but in my case, and in my experience, there is peace to be found in letting it be; of letting go of any expectations or hopes that the other will change.

Yes, I get what you're saying here and your later clarification. That's in general what I mean by giving up the "fight". I don't want to argue, I don't want to work so hard to justify myself to people who are biological essentialists.

I will say, being trans is different than being gay. I suffer from dysphoria. Fear of being rejected has kept me closeted the last few years since I decided on this direction. I desire to be seen and thought of as a man. I desire to look in the mirror and see a man. So, when my family call me a woman's name and refuse to be corrected, it IS like they're not accepting whole parts of me. I understand it'll take some time and I'm willing to be patient. But I'm talking about those family who aren't interested in trying, who don't want to try. And I agree, it is a "let it be" I can't control them kind of feeling. But it also has me trying to think of how to navigate future family gatherings while I'm working on myself, trying to own this role, trying to be seen as more masculine, and they make me feel like a woman just pretending with a word.

(February 16, 2022 at 8:40 pm)Rev. Rye Wrote: Well, at least you can take solace in the fact that there’s loads of other things to do here besides debating theists. I just look for a thread that seems interesting to me and if it looks like I have something to say about it, I do. And if you’re burned out from debating theists, well, by this point, I rarely debate theists. Indeed, by this point, several of the users I spar against the most are other atheists (though they are more right-wing than is usual for the forum.) And while I don’t expect that I can convince them they’re wrong, I do expect that I can show the rest of us that they’re wrong.

Just hang in there, man.

Thanks, Rev. We can always talk spooky movies, yes.

(February 16, 2022 at 9:08 pm)Foxaire Wrote: Looking good. Smile

I'm still in the process of losing more weight, too, but these last fifteen pounds just don't want to shed themselves from me. xD I seem stuck around the 165 area.

Thank you. It doesn't get easier! I have gone dirty vegetarian (I am veg most days but at least 2-3 times a week, I add a very small amount of animal meat into my meals) because I just couldn't fecking lose while eating animals. It's a good thing I like vegetables so much.

I've got about 66 lbs. to go before I hit my goal. I wanted to get down and build muscle before I start HRT. It'll be like puberty all over again and testosterone makes you hungry, I have heard. So, I'll likely gain a bit when I start it.

(February 16, 2022 at 10:09 pm)no one Wrote: I'm beginning to think I'm the only one who put my actual photo in my avatar.

Lol! I wish I had Eklund's beard. Sorry to disappoint. Someday soon, though!

(February 16, 2022 at 11:54 pm)Jehanne Wrote: I would focus on BMI and not weight; I like the 24-24.99 range, just below the "overweight" category.

Yep. I'm using BMI as my goal gauge. My BMI healthy weight range is 122-167 lbs. My goal weight is 150 lbs. Today, I'm 216 and that puts me at 31.9 between overweight and obese. So, yes, I'm using that as a general meter to shoot for.

(February 17, 2022 at 1:19 am)Fireball Wrote:
(February 16, 2022 at 9:08 pm)Foxaire Wrote: Looking good. Smile

I'm still in the process of losing more weight, too, but these last fifteen pounds just don't want to shed themselves from me. xD I seem stuck around the 165 area.

Lucky you. I haven't weighed that little in over 30 years. I saw a doctor on TV (yes, I know, but a real doctor (and nutritionist), who talked about how a person's body may have a "set point" which makes it difficult to lose weight below it). Ten, yer lookin' good! Keep it up.  Great I wish you luck on your personal journey.

Thank you!

(February 17, 2022 at 7:17 am)Goosebump Wrote: I know everything here is all "WTG" and "YdoY" bla bla.

But your family shouldn't be written off over a single decision. Just want to make sure you haven't signed them to the Anti-woke grave yard. People can understand parts of each other without getting the whole. In fact that might be the vast majority if not all of human existence. So give them a second shot at it. I know it would be hard for me to call my siblings another name out of the blue after years of naming them one thing.

Don't expect radical change at a 90degree turn. You might be seeing a whole new way, but everybody behind you is just seeing a new side of you for the first time.

That is a Great quote! Did I just first that?

I understand. And it's good advice. I guess, I'm keeping my expectations low is all. It would matter a lot and I'd take the occasional mistakes better if I knew they were trying, that they wanted this for me. But they don't. And that's kind of hurtful to be around? I know, likely with time, tensions will ease. I was just in general expressing my fatigue about this as well as pursuit of sparring foes in the theist sphere.

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#14
RE: Giving up the fight
(February 18, 2022 at 9:36 am)Ten Wrote:
(February 16, 2022 at 9:48 am)emjay Wrote: Hang in there Hug I understand how you feel... I've often felt similar. In my case some of my family have an ostrich-like approach not only to gay issues but also atheism, so their tendency is to pre-emptively shut down any conversation that could even potentially threaten their beliefs/world view. So when I came to this site, at first it was a welcome change; seeing theists actually willing to expose themselves to and address uncomfortable issues... and at the beginning, arguing/debating with them was quite therapeutic for me. But as time wore on, I kind of came to the conclusion, it wasn't that much different - ostrich or no, the door wasn't really open for many, so now I have a much more Buddhist/stoic approach to it all, of just let it be. I know that's probably easier said than done in some situations, especially if they're actively being a dick, and I'm so sorry that they are for you Sad, and in any case it's probably not for everyone, but in my case, and in my experience, there is peace to be found in letting it be; of letting go of any expectations or hopes that the other will change.

Yes, I get what you're saying here and your later clarification. That's in general what I mean by giving up the "fight". I don't want to argue, I don't want to work so hard to justify myself to people who are biological essentialists.

I will say, being trans is different than being gay. I suffer from dysphoria. Fear of being rejected has kept me closeted the last few years since I decided on this direction. I desire to be seen and thought of as a man. I desire to look in the mirror and see a man. So, when my family call me a woman's name and refuse to be corrected, it IS like they're not accepting whole parts of me. I understand it'll take some time and I'm willing to be patient. But I'm talking about those family who aren't interested in trying, who don't want to try. And I agree, it is a "let it be" I can't control them kind of feeling. But it also has me trying to think of how to navigate future family gatherings while I'm working on myself, trying to own this role, trying to be seen as more masculine, and they make me feel like a woman just pretending with a word.

I'm sorry if I overgeneralised there, and so sorry that you're going through all of this Sad I can only imagine how rejected you feel, and how much to the core, because when I talked about homosexuality 'only' being a part of me, not the whole of me, I only really meant that - for me - as a comforting/comfortable abstraction, ie it's a much bigger part of me than my family would ever give it credit for (still not the whole, but bigger), and I'm sure an even bigger and more fundamental part for issues such as yours to do with identity and gender and the skin you feel comfortable in... those sorts of issues I've never really had... so I'm sorry if you felt I was downplaying the significance of that; it's just my own emotional tendency, for myself in many situations, to abstract, [over]analyse, and emotionally step back/detach, but I know that's not everyone. I wish I knew what else to say, or could give some practical advice, but I don't/can't... other than to wish you all the best and hope you can find some sort of peace, however long it takes Hug
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#15
RE: Giving up the fight
(February 18, 2022 at 12:36 pm)emjay Wrote: I'm sorry if I overgeneralised there, and so sorry that you're going through all of this Sad I can only imagine how rejected you feel, and how much to the core, because when I talked about homosexuality 'only' being a part of me, not the whole of me, I only really meant that - for me - as a comforting/comfortable abstraction, ie it's a much bigger part of me than my family would ever give it credit for (still not the whole, but bigger), and I'm sure an even bigger and more fundamental part for issues such as yours to do with identity and gender and the skin you feel comfortable in... those sorts of issues I've never really had... so I'm sorry if you felt I was downplaying the significance of that; it's just my own emotional tendency, for myself in many situations, to abstract, [over]analyse, and emotionally step back/detach, but I know that's not everyone. I wish I knew what else to say, or could give some practical advice, but I don't/can't... other than to wish you all the best and hope you can find some sort of peace, however long it takes Hug

No worries, emjay! I appreciate the advice and the spirit of what you're getting at. Because it can feel preferable in the moment to retreat entirely from things that are hurtful, rather than measuring it against the whole and the context/motivation of my family members. *hugs* Thank you.

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#16
RE: Giving up the fight
During my transition, I lost over 100 lbs in 18 months. One unattended and unforeseen consequence is the evil looks on the faces of some evangelical Christian women.
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#17
RE: Giving up the fight
(February 18, 2022 at 8:15 pm)Jehanne Wrote: During my transition, I lost over 100 lbs in 18 months.  One unattended and unforeseen consequence is the evil looks on the faces of some evangelical Christian women.

Ah, nice! Thankfully, I'm surrounded by family and I don't go out much, so, the only people who really see me are people who are supportive and cheering me on. ^^;;

I've lost 104 lbs. in 10 months. It's probably a bit fast but when I was bigger...curvy, I felt a lot of anxiety looking down at my own body. So, I've been motivated for a while to lose at a faster pace to relieve that discomfort. I've slowed down the last 4 months to losing about 10 lbs./month. Omg. I'm bad at forming math shortcuts. Please... Let's forget I said that and pretend that I intuitively understood all along that 100/10=10 instead of realizing it almost a half hour after I explained this math problem indirectly as a "change" in my rate of weight loss, when really, the total is pointing that was my general rate all along.

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