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A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
(March 23, 2022 at 3:00 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:
(March 19, 2022 at 6:33 pm)Ferrocyanide Wrote: But why is your only solution to throw people into a lake with element 16? What would that accomplish?

First of all, it is not my solution, the doctrine of hell is common in all Abrahamic religions at least. Secondly, the obvious purpose of hell is to accomplish divine justice. Read again, divine justice, not your definition of justice, or that of any finite being with limited cognition. 

Do you deny that you have limited cognition? (Y/N)
Do you think you can apprehend justice and morality better than all-knowing being? (Y/N)

All this is obvious, so I am not going to spell it out again.


There isn’t anything about hell in judaism. The tanakh does not talk much about it but it does give clues that the jews were flat earthers and that they believed that hell was below them and that heaven was above them.

For example:
Deuteronomy 32:22 KING JAMES VERSION
For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

^^^^^This suggests to us that jews believe that hell is below the surface. Jews are flat earthers. They are confusing high temperature with fire.



Psalms 86:13 KING JAMES VERSION
For great [is] thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.

^^^^^This gives us a vague clue that there is a proportionality: lower = worst layers


Psalms 88:6 KING JAMES VERSION
Thou hast laid me in the lowest pit, in darkness, in the deeps. {88:7} Thy wrath lieth hard upon me, and thou hast afflicted [me] with all thy waves. Selah.

^^^^^This gives us a vague clue that there is a proportionality: lower = worst layers



Psalms 139:15 KING JAMES VERSION
My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, [and] curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.

^^^^^Again, the same thing is repeated.


You can also read
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article...tradition/


Christianity is a merger religion. It fuses judaism, greek religion, roman religion, babylonian, mythraism and perhaps more.
It is said that the idea of hell is mostly inspired by the greek religion.
It is possible that those ideas have influenced rabbis from other sects.


Anyway, since you have joined the religion of Islam, you agree with the jewish god, right?
But why is your only solution to throw people into a lake with element 16? What would that accomplish?


Quote:Do you deny that you have limited cognition? (Y/N)
Do you think you can apprehend justice and morality better than all-knowing being? (Y/N)

All this is obvious, so I am not going to spell it out again.

I think that it is important that I say this again:
Just because a guy has a sticker on his jacket that says “Hello, I am a god.” doesn’t mean that he is exactly who you think he is. It doesn’t mean that you should abandon your reasoning, your morals and just blindly follow him.

Also, I have a question for you. If this jewish god made me a god, would you be ok with whatever I decide?

This kind of argument pops up often from theist. This idea that the jewish god is perfect therefore, we should not question his decision to torture people forever in hell.
We aren’t talking about rocket science, as the old saying goes.

So, I’ll ask you this question. If I tell this jewish god that he is ugly, would he throw me in hell?

Quote:Why would I sit with a criminal or a mass murderer to know his issues? unless you're referring to some medical case where the perpetrator is mentally unstable and can't be held accountable, I don't know what you're talking about.

I’m not sure. I sense that you don’t have much desire to talk about these issues and you brought in “a mass murderer” into the conversation. Your line felt more like a hit and run operation.
Try not to build massive wall.
I don’t know about your mass murderer example.
What I am talking about is stuff that has been established for decades. Prison in the western world is regarded more of a rehab center rather than a place of torture or complete isolation.

I don’t know about mass murderers but in the case of various criminals, they are put in jail and there are psychologists available to them to reform them. Sweden has placed a lot of effort into their program.


Swedish Prison vs United States Prison - How Do They Actually Compare?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzOfjX0VWCk
By The infographics Show
Length = 9:08

This one is about someone who is in a maximum security prison
How Norway's Prisons Are Different From America's | NowThis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zNpehw-Yjvs
By NowThis News
Length = 9:11

This video is about a man who is serving a life sentence for murder.
He is studying at the university level. He seems to be interested in technology and marketing.
Prisoners In Finland Live In Open Prisons Where They Learn Tech Skills | On The Ground
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l554kV12Wuo
By Insider News
Length = 9:11



Are these concepts that you are alright with?
What would you do different in your prison system?


Quote:You're so horribly confused here. God's existence and the historicity of Muhammad are two separate issues. And your stance on either of these issues is not clear so far.

I wrote:
Such stories about Jesus and Mohamed and Boy George are wonderful works of science-fiction.

So, for example, when the Bible says that Jesus is walking on sea until he reaches a boat in the middle of the sea, I don’t buy it.
When it says that the jewish god impregnated Mary magically, I don’t buy it.
In the case of Mohamed, I think the claim is that he went into a cave and an alien or angel or the jewish god told him to recite and he magically was reciting the Koran, I don’t buy it.
I think it is also claimed that Mohamed road a winged horse and cracked the Moon into 2, I don’t buy it.

So, I am not talking about existence of these guys. Probably there was a Jesus. Probably there were a bunch of messiahs trying to save Israel from the “evil” overlords (Romans).
Political problems do occur. It is not out of the ordinary. I don’t have trouble believing that Rome was ruling over Israel.

I simply reject the extraordinary claims.

You asked:
Do you think God can't proved by empirical science?
I don’t know what your abilities are. What experiment are you planing on doing?

You asked:
Do you think that we can't prove anything that isn't observable?
Proof is something done in mathematics.
When it comes to the difficult to observe cases, in science, we extrapolate from what we already know.
For example, nobody has directly observed the Earth’s core. Some random people claim that it is hollow inside.
Scientist think that is silly. It makes sense that it is not hollow and that higher density materials sunk to the core. The Earth’s gravitational field indicates to us that the average density of Earth is about 5 g/cm3. This suggests that the core density is above 7 g/cm3, which suggests that the core might be iron. This makes sense sence iron is manufactured en mass inside stars.
In fact, quite a lot of asteroids contain large amounts of iron and lesser amounts of nickel.

You asked:
Do you think that Muhammad was faking prophecy?
I think that Mohamed lived in the region and I think christianity was spreading so, he had heard about that religion from either someone in his community as he was growing up or he was already at the adult stage.
I don’t know what prophecy you are talking about but from what I have seen in the Bible, all the prophecies are vagueries. In some cases, they did not work out.

Quote:Yes, precisely that. And it's obvious isn't it. Without a creator, there is no guarantee that our brain apprehends reality in any reliable way. The argument is straightforward: if the evolutionary process is not the intention of a creator to bring about brains capable of apprehending reality, then there is no good reason for us to assume our brains are reliable.

You pointed out to our various scientific accomplishments as evidence: this is pragmatism. The reliability of our brains shouldn't be contingent upon whether our mathematical models are correct. And needless to say that our science was mostly wrong until very recently.

If there is a god, then how can we know that his brain is working correctly?
You still haven’t provided a reasonable reason.
You just flat out claim “Hey, it is obvious! He is the creator!”

I already answered but here it is again:
To me, it looks like it is working fine.
I write programs. They work as I wish. I am not claiming to be the best programmer in the world and it takes some time debugging but eventually, I output a functional product.
Calculators, TVs, VHS players, the space shuttle are all products of science. Do they work well or not?

They work just fine.

Scientific concepts, mathematical models seem to work fine. Once in a while, we are able to make predictions that turn out to match what we find in nature.

So, it looks like science is doing well.

So, where is the problem?

You believe in the jewish god and you believe that this god’s brain works correctly and that he designed your brain to work correctly.
Great. So, how do you know that the jewish god’s brain is working correctly?

Quote:Because only elements of nature have capabilities, life forms have capabilities for example. But it doesn't follow that nature as a whole has capabilities.

OK, but I’m still not sure what you are talking about. What part of nature are you talking about and what capability is it lacking?

Quote:You won't be able to provide some internal inconsistency in the doctrine of heaven or hell. You already made gratuitous arguments like saying people will feel bored in heaven or won't have anything to do after some amount of years etc. This is not a serious discussion of these doctrines.

The issue is not that there are internal inconsistency.
I think that all theists wish to go to heaven or be with god or be with their loved ones or be gods. The belief varies quiet a bit.
There is always stuff to do. What I am saying is that the people who wrote these stories simply can’t give much of a description of heaven, since even if they tried, the reader can ask, “Well after doing that, what do we do?”
Giving a description of hell is the easy part. There are lakes of element 16 and you get tortured forever and burned. It’s not very creative and it need not be. The goal has been achieved since the goal is to scare people. It is a psychological tool to coerce people to be good. Not many people ask “Well, what else do I get to do in hell?”

For my comment about heaven being boring after a while, christians have told me “Nah, you won’t get bored.”
You told me the same thing. Thanks for trying. Let me know when your imagination starts working.
It’s your heaven. It is your goal to get there. Are you telling me you made no plans for your vacation?

Quote:You say you are not making argument, and immediately after that you write a premise (A being that doesn't immediately prevent a crime is immoral) and a conclusion.

And I already told you why your premise is wrong: it negates free will. You may say why won't God create a world where there is free will and no evil, and the answer would be : we know from literature that this world is not a possible world. And omnipotence doesn't entail creating a logically impossible world.


That’s correct. I am not making an argument. I am just making an observation.
You are making looking at the same thing and your claim is that god is moral.

Stopping crime does not interfere with free will. If god is omniscient, then he already knows the future.
If you are claiming he is not omniscient, then he can make a duplicate world where people are zombies (or if you like, we can call them simulations) and the only real person is that person in question.
So, any person he kills, tortures, burns wold not have real consequences.


Quote:You're confused again. The discussion is not about me, lol. You're here arguing, a being with finite knowledge, that an all-knowing God has no reason not to prevent crime immediately. This is a negative assertion. Good luck proving a negative assertion.

Your inability to substantiate that claim beyond simple moral condemnation is enough to reject your argument from evil.

It is about you. It is your religion. You have convinced yourself that that religion is true, right.
So, defend your religion.
You are claiming the jewish god is all knowing. How do you know?

You say:
all-knowing God has no reason not to prevent crime immediately.

Go ahead and tell me the reason.
It doesn’t interfere with free will at all.
So, first choose. Is the jewish god omniscient or not. Let’s start with that and we’ll continue the discussion.


Quote:It's not about gender bias, Islam doesn't acknowledge women joining the military in the first place.


Islam is founded in the 7 th century and carries with it the old gender bias.
Back then, women were not in the military.
So, it sounds like Mohamed or someone around that period decided that when you kill your enemy’s army, take the woman but don’t execute them.

But time marches on. The western world has woman in the armies.
The question is, would it be a good idea to send an army of woman if we are at war with an islamic country? Perhaps we can wipe out islam’s army pretty quickly that way.

Quote:And it's clear that the Russian court system can't do anything about Putin's aggression. Maybe NATO countries are justified in not intervening to avoid a global war, but it's clear that there is something inherently wrong in the justice system that allowed for the invasion of Ukraine to happen.

Yes, it is called corruption. Some people have a lot of power. That’s the real world. It is imperfect.

Your initial comment was:
You seem to put the modern criminal system on a pedestal. Maybe you forget its complete inability to punish heads of state or anyone with some influence, even if they happen to be war criminals. Can your modern court system do anything to Putin as he is killing children right now?
Islam forbids killing women even if they are enemy combatants, does your modern court system do that?

^^^^^Well, nobody said that the world is a perfect place, sweetheart.

I think you would make a great military commander. So, go ahead and order your men to not fire back at women while some foreign army has an army of women remotely pressing a button and sending large number of missiles at you from 2000 km away.
That’s the future of combat: Drones, self-guided missiles, tanks with AI, jet planes with AI, dropping bombs from space and plenty more.
Reply
RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
(March 27, 2022 at 10:11 am)Ferrocyanide Wrote: Look. I understand that you do not like what Russia is doing, you do not agree with their actions.
I’m not here to defend what Russia is doing.
Yes you are, just scroll back at your previous posts. Seriously.

(March 27, 2022 at 10:11 am)Ferrocyanide Wrote: I am just telling you that what is happening is predictable.
The politicians in the EU and in the USA are not dummies. They know very well Russia. Yet, the EU and USA goes ahead with their decisions.
So, what exactly did they do to incite Russia to send a large army into Ukraine 1 month ago?
Quote:What do you think, someone else did do to incite an russian invasion of Ukraine.
Please pay attention: Russia chose the tool to use in this situation, nobody else. What happened that left Russia no choice but to invade Ukraine?

[quote='Ferrocyanide' pid='2095480' dateline='1648390264']
You seem to be saying that Ukraine should join NATO and the USA should have military bases there.
[quote]
I didnt say that, please stop....too late (see below)
No i am saying what i say. I dont need you to tell me what i say. What a fucking surprise, isnt it?
No i am saying you are apologizing invasions, like in the quote above where you claimed someone "incited" Russia to invade Ukraine.


[quote='Ferrocyanide' pid='2095480' dateline='1648390264']
[quote]
Not the same but an equivocation. A real bad one at that, since you need to demonstrate that Ukraine is not acting on her own behalf)

No, that is irrelevant.
The important component here is that there are 2 large mutual enemies: USA and Russia.
The USA continues to view Russia as problematic, even after the fall of the Soviet Union. Russia responds.
The USA wants to setup military bases everywhere in the world and you think Russia, China are not noticing that?
Equivocations are hardly irrelevant when you are justifying invasions with them.
What the fuck is this deflection with China and military bases about? That is irrelevant to Russias invasion of Ukraine. Look at yourself, you are trying to justify this invasion by pointing to whatever the US does. I´ll repeat: whatever the US does (right or wrong, duh) does.not.justify an invasion of Ukraine by Russia. How hard is this to understand? Have you never read about whataboutism or what?


(March 27, 2022 at 10:11 am)Ferrocyanide Wrote:
Quote:More, very bad ones, equivocations.

I was only documenting about some of the political games that these nations are playing.
Yeah, just like Anomalocaris you are asked to condemn an action unconditionally worth of condemnation, and your reply is centerd around whataboutism and "thats the way things are". I am not asking you what the US does, i am not asking you how things are, i am not stupid, i know how things are, i dont need someone like you explaining to me how things are. I probably know much better than you how things are. Are we finished now with how things are? Can we fucking go back on topic now, pretty please?

Should Russia be held accountable for its invasion of Ukraine? Do you think the russian invasion of Ukraine was justified? Do you think any invasion of an independent and free nation is justified, under any circumstance
Please pay attention: Your answer should not revolve around the US (or any other state) and its actions, since all of this is irrelevant to the general evaluation of an independent nation by another nation.

(March 27, 2022 at 10:11 am)Ferrocyanide Wrote: For example, I said that Russia wants to explore the upper regions of Canada where you have some random small islands.
If you were the canadian government, what would you do?
Utterly irrelevant
But ill bite: Invade Russia, because someone like you would go to a forum and defend my invasion by telling everyone that this "is how things are"?


(March 27, 2022 at 10:11 am)Ferrocyanide Wrote: Like I said previously, I am not trying to defend what Russia is doing.
What I am saying is very simple:
The USA takes action X.
Russia responds.
The USA responds.
and on and on it goes.
Yes you are trying to defend what Russia is doing, by using equivocations. And when i told you, you doubled down by making more abstract equivocations. Right here, right now.
And now your equivocations are becoming even more abstract, and thus absurd.
US does something, Russia does something, thus invasions are ok.  Wacky
Or were you trying to explain to me again "how things are". In that case sorry, I wasnt ware that "US doing stuff triggers Russia doing stuff". Thanks for explaining the world to (silly) me.  Hilarious

(March 27, 2022 at 10:11 am)Ferrocyanide Wrote: Do you want that to continue?
If you were the government of the USA, what decisions would you take? Would you go ahead and have Ukraine join NATO and would you setup military bases over there?
Why do you have to deny and deflect? Why do you have to keep asking questions in return to a simple question any decent person would be able to answer in a split second?: Was the invasion of Ukraine by Russia justified?

(March 27, 2022 at 10:11 am)Ferrocyanide Wrote:
Quote:Thats what russian government controlled media are spewing, propaganda. Got some facts to support this?

In order to have such facts, you would have to discuss the situation with the people over there or you have to be living over there.
In the case of Ukraine, I do not truly know but I think it makes sense.
You dont have facts. ok
What you have (thanks for admitting) is "it makes sense". So russian state propaganda is "making sense to you". Well, good for you, i guess?

Since you know you have nothing you felt compelled to add that noone else can have possibly facts.  Hilarious
This is literally like claiming that Atheism is just another religion. Its a (not so) silent admission you have nothing.


(March 27, 2022 at 10:11 am)Ferrocyanide Wrote: It sounds like you are saying there is no anti-russian sentiment over there
Where did i say that!!!???
Right, nowhere. So stop lying and suggesting that i did.  Mad

Me not buying russian state propaganda because "it makes sense", does not make me claim the opposite. You know the routine. You make claims, you provide evicence.


(March 27, 2022 at 10:11 am)Ferrocyanide Wrote: and you require me to provide evidence.
I’m sorry, but I cannot satisfy your request
So you do know that routine, fine!
Then fucking stop lying and suggesting i am making unsupported claims like you.

But lets put your dishonesty and deflection aside. Ill grant you now that there are "anti russian sentiments" in the eastern parts of Ukraine. Does that justify an invasion of Ukraine by Russia?  Huh

(March 27, 2022 at 10:11 am)Ferrocyanide Wrote: but maybe you can contact a large number of ukrainians and have discussions with them and watch some ukrainian channels.
I am not talking to random Ukrainians nor do i wish to. I am unfortunately stuck talking to someone like you: An apologist for breach of international law and supporter of invasions.
Those Ukrainians didnt come here, made unsupported assertions because these "made sense" to them, and they didnt lie about what i said.


(March 27, 2022 at 10:11 am)Ferrocyanide Wrote: I’m not here to defend what Russia is doing.
I am just telling you that what is happening is predictable.
Oh yeah, the old "im just saying how it is", in order to avoid having to tell if you think what "is" is justifyable.
Thank you Captain Obvious. Without you telling me dictators not giving a shit about international law, i wouldnt be able to tie my shoelaces.
Do you happen to know what 2+2 is? I am pondering this for all of my life. Would be great if someone like you would be able to communicate this to an idiot like me.


(March 27, 2022 at 10:11 am)Ferrocyanide Wrote: I am also going to copy my previous line since you did not respond to it:
What is happening in Ukraine right now is a perfect moment to show how the USA can protect anyone.
What is stopping the USA? A piece of paper was not signed?
Why dont you ask Joe Biden?
Cetero censeo religionem delendam esse
Reply
RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
(March 28, 2022 at 12:28 am)Ferrocyanide Wrote: There isn’t anything about hell in judaism. 

Why do you bring up Judaism? Neither of us is a Jew so what's the point? 

Anyway, your point above is extremely important: the absence of hell, or any form of punishment in end times, is enough to show Judaism is not tenable as a religious belief. If there is no hell, then evidently the dramatic injustice in this life will never be redressed. It's extremely difficult to reconcile this with the existence of a just and caring deity.

I should be clear here: the problem with being a jew is not just that the belief one endorses doesn't satisfy the requirements of evidentialism. It's internally inconsistent, as false and meaningless as a married bachelor.

(March 28, 2022 at 12:28 am)Ferrocyanide Wrote: Christianity is a merger religion. It fuses judaism, greek religion, roman religion, babylonian, mythraism and perhaps more.
It is said that the idea of hell is mostly inspired by the greek religion.
It is possible that those ideas have influenced rabbis from other sects.

All this is not a threat to theism, as we acknowledge free will and that free agents can corrupt the divine message. Islam says that the first man was a prophet (Adam), therefore the remnants of the first prophet might have influenced all the ancient religions. 

As you can see, the plurality of religions and even their evolution can easily be reconciled with the Islamic faith: an initial divine message is passed on across numerous generations of religious communities, each generation has its own struggles, political motivations and caprices of human beings, it's inevitable that the initial message will serve as an instrument to attain worldly ambitions, but this is not a good reason to reject the existence of the initial message. 

(March 28, 2022 at 12:28 am)Ferrocyanide Wrote: But why is your only solution to throw people into a lake with element 16? What would that accomplish?

You're repeating yourself: the doctrine of hell is not my solution. It's simply what's in scripture, that's why all(most?) theists believe in it. The real question is whether you should accept scripture at face value.

You ask " What would that accomplish?" which is a meaningless question,  punishment in end times obviously doesn't have any educational purpose, it's too late -according to orthodox belief- to educate someone who ignored the divine signs once they die, they only reap what they sow. A tragic outcome that shows how serious the question of religious belief is.

(March 28, 2022 at 12:28 am)Ferrocyanide Wrote: I think that it is important that I say this again:
Just because a guy has a sticker on his jacket that says “Hello, I am a god.” doesn’t mean that he is exactly who you think he is. It doesn’t mean that you should abandon your reasoning, your morals and just blindly follow him.

Also, I have a question for you. If this jewish god made me a god, would you be ok with whatever I decide?

This kind of argument pops up often from theist. This idea that the jewish god is perfect therefore, we should not question his decision to torture people forever in hell.
We aren’t talking about rocket science, as the old saying goes.

You're asking the wrong questions here. You either believe in the God of classical theism or you don't. If you don't, it's futile to complain about the details of some religious doctrine, such as the afterlife.

If you do, then you have a formidable argument for the existence of the afterlife:

(1) God created finite persons to exist in fellowship with himself.
(2) It would contradict His purpose to allow them to perish completely when his purpose for them remains unfulfilled.

(3) Therefore, it's reasonable to believe in life after death.

The argument is valid and sound in so far as you accept God's existence.

(March 28, 2022 at 12:28 am)Ferrocyanide Wrote: You asked:
Do you think God can't proved by empirical science?
I don’t know what your abilities are. What experiment are you planing on doing?

Nice dodge.

Let me be more straightforward: do you agree with the following statement "For any assertion P, P is true if and only if there exists an experiment confirming that P is true" ? (Y/N)

and the following statement : "For any assertion P, P is true if and only if P is empirically falsifiable" ? (Y/N)

(March 28, 2022 at 12:28 am)Ferrocyanide: Wrote: Do you think that Muhammad was faking prophecy?
I think that Mohamed lived in the region and I think christianity was spreading so, he had heard about that religion from either someone in his community as he was growing up or he was already at the adult stage.

I didn't ask you about the alleged sources of the Qur'an. I asked what do you think, you, of the Islamic prophet PBUH. Did he lie about his prophethood? Did he mistakenly think he communicated with the supernatural ?

(March 28, 2022 at 12:28 am)Ferrocyanide Wrote: You believe in the jewish god and you believe that this god’s brain works correctly and that he designed your brain to work correctly.
Great. So, how do you know that the jewish god’s brain is working correctly?

Respectfully, that's a silly question. There is no reason to think that a mind is impossible without a brain, no one ever devised a successful argument establishing that. The fact that you think that a mind existing anywhere requires a physical brain is due to your lack of imagination, no good reason to think so.

You're not alone in this mistake, we can find articles of very abled philosophers arguing against theism on the basis of God being disembodied.

(March 28, 2022 at 12:28 am)Ferrocyanide Wrote: That’s correct. I am not making an argument. I am just making an observation.
You are making looking at the same thing and your claim is that god is moral.

Stopping crime does not interfere with free will. If god is omniscient, then he already knows the future.
If you are claiming he is not omniscient, then he can make a duplicate world where people are zombies (or if you like, we can call them simulations) and the only real person is that person in question.
So, any person he kills, tortures, burns wold not have real consequences.

God stopping any human action intereferes with free will, by definition. Again, if you have a serious argument establishing that the two statements:

(1) God exists and is all-powerful+benevolent.
(2) Evil exists.

are contradictory, then you can send your article to any peer reviewed jounal in the philosophy of religion and you'll instantly become the most acclaimed philosopher of all time, we finally have a knock-down argument against theism!

Unfortunately, it's not just that no such argument has ever been presented, knock-down arguments don't exist in philosophy anyway, it was even showed (in the free will defense) that the two statements are compatible.
Qur'anic revelation is the sole path to ultimate reality. All argumentation and philosophy is an expression of arrogance and an overestimation of human cognitive ability. 

"But believe me, Cleanthes, the most natural feeling that a well-disposed mind will have on this occasion is a longing desire and expectation that God will be pleased to remove or at least to lessen this profound ignorance, by giving mankind some particular revelation, revealing the nature, attributes, and operations of the divine object of our faith." (Hume's Dialogues)


Reply
RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
(April 16, 2022 at 1:58 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: Anyway, your point above is extremely important: the absence of hell, or any form of punishment in end times, is enough to show Judaism is not tenable as a religious belief. If there is no hell, then evidently the dramatic injustice in this life will never be redressed. 

Have you ever considered how narrow a view of religious belief that entails? How narrow a view of god that entails?

Think about what you've said. In your opinion, a god without a torture chamber can't be believed in. There's just no other way god could effect justice.

He's as dumb and bloodthirsty as any human savage, huh? Must be. Just not believable otherwise. Good luck when you see him. For your sake, let's hope he doesn't actually run a pain pron dungeon filled with people who talk shit.
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RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
(April 17, 2022 at 1:29 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote:
(April 16, 2022 at 1:58 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: Anyway, your point above is extremely important: the absence of hell, or any form of punishment in end times, is enough to show Judaism is not tenable as a religious belief. If there is no hell, then evidently the dramatic injustice in this life will never be redressed. 

Have you ever considered how narrow a view of religious belief that entails?  How narrow a view of god that entails?

Think about what you've said.  In your opinion, a god without a torture chamber can't be believed in.  There's just no other way god could effect justice.  

He's as dumb and bloodthirsty as any human savage, huh?  Must be.  Just not believable otherwise.  Good luck when you see him.  For your sake, let's hope he doesn't actually run a pain pron dungeon filled with people who talk shit.
No no god must be a cruel monster who tortures people forever .....(sarcasm)
“The sun from far gives life. But get close to it and it burns anything down to ashes”

[Image: flag-ukraine_1f1fa-1f1e6.png]  Heart [Image: canada-google.png]        

 “No matter what men think, abortion is a fact of life. Women have always had them; they always have and they always will. Are they going to have good ones or bad ones? Will the good ones be reserved for the rich, while the poor women go to quacks?”
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RE: A "meta-argument" against all future arguments for God's existence ?
He must be, because Kloro can't imagine or understand anything else. He kindof works for kloro, stuck doing only what kloros spider brain can conceive of.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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