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[Quranic reflection]: hell is a black hole-part III
#41
RE: [Quranic reflection]: hell is a black hole-part III
(April 16, 2022 at 12:57 am)WinterHold Wrote: Muslims weren't destroyers of civilizations, thank you for your remark.
Unlike the Conquistadors, the Mongols and other toxic expansions, Muslims kept every civilization intact,

Muslim= Religious affiliation
Conquistador = occupation
Mongol = ethnicity


(April 16, 2022 at 12:57 am)WinterHold Wrote: the Egyptian pyramids are an example.

[Image: HagiaSophia2WEB.jpg]
Cetero censeo religionem delendam esse
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#42
RE: [Quranic reflection]: hell is a black hole-part III
To answer Winterhold's op, a distillation of his nearly 600 spam threads would be a better representation of hell than any black hole.



If hell existed.
The great appear great because we are on our knees. Let us rise!
Big James
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#43
RE: [Quranic reflection]: hell is a black hole-part III
WinterHold,

I agree with Dr. Tyson's remarks; just so that my position is clear. Islamic scholarship, a millennium ago, was laudable.

Dawn
And without delay Peter went quickly out of the synagogue (assembly) and went unto the house of Marcellus, where Simon lodged: and much people followed him...And Peter turned unto the people that followed him and said: Ye shall now see a great and marvellous wonder. And Peter seeing a great dog bound with a strong chain, went to him and loosed him, and when he was loosed the dog received a man's voice and said unto Peter: What dost thou bid me to do, thou servant of the unspeakable and living God? Peter said unto him: Go in and say unto Simon in the midst of his company: Peter saith unto thee, Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And immediately the dog ran and entered in, and rushed into the midst of them that were with Simon, and lifted up his forefeet and in a loud voice said: Thou Simon, Peter the servant of Christ who standeth at the door saith unto thee: Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou most wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And when Simon heard it, and beheld the incredible sight, he lost the words wherewith he was deceiving them that stood by, and all of them were amazed. (The Acts of Peter, 9)
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#44
RE: [Quranic reflection]: hell is a black hole-part III
(April 15, 2022 at 5:06 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: -Geocentrism.

Misinformed liar. The Qur'an never says that the Sun revolves around the Earth, or that the Earth is static.

(April 15, 2022 at 5:06 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: -The sun sets in a muddy spring and rises in a village.

Read the verse again, you misinformed liar:

"until he reached the setting ˹point˺ of the sun, which appeared to him to be setting in a spring of murky water, where he found some people. We said, “O Ⱬul-Qarnain! Either punish them or treat them kindly.” (18:86)

https://quran.com/18?startingVerse=86

You removed the part in bold to make the verse fit your allegation. I am going to be kind and assume you're just a copycat who cluelessly regurgitates christian polemics.

And you pulled the "Sun rising in a village" bit right out of your bottom, afaik.

(April 15, 2022 at 5:06 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: -Creation in six days.

"Six days" is susceptible to many interpretations, given that the word "day" in the Qur'an refers in many verses to an arbitrary period of time. So, no mistake.

(April 15, 2022 at 5:06 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: -Earth is older than the stars.

Another instance of dishonest manipulation of the verses, let's read them together to really grasp how dishonest you are (or the idiots you're copying this from):

Ask ˹them, O  Prophet˺, “How can you disbelieve in the One Who created the earth in two Days? And how can you set up equals with Him? That is the Lord of all worlds. (41:9)

And then:

He placed on the earth firm mountains, standing high, showered His blessings upon it, and ordained ˹all˺ its means of sustenance—totaling four Days exactly1—for all who ask. (41:10)

And then:

Then He turned towards the heaven when it was ˹still like˺ smoke, saying to it and to the earth, ‘Submit, willingly or unwillingly.’ They both responded, ‘We submit willingly.’ (41:11)

The verse says : God turned towards the heaven, it doesn't say: God created the heaven. The heaven (e.g. the sky and all its contents)  was like smoke when God created the Earth, in other words, the heaven ALREADY EXISTED.

The verse that comes after is :

So He formed the heaven into seven heavens in two Days, assigning to each its mandate. And We adorned the lowest heaven with ˹stars like˺ lamps ˹for beauty˺ and for protection. That is the design of the Almighty, All-Knowing.” (41:12)

As you can see, the adverb "then" is used in the third verse and clearly indicates the chronological order of creation, in this last verse however, we have no adverb conveying chronological order, the verse just presents more information about how many heavens are there, and about creating stars, neither events can be said to have happened after God spoke to the heaven and the earth.

So the dishonest trick they do either  replace : "turned towards the heaven" by "created the heaven" or assume there is chronological order when there isn't. 

(April 15, 2022 at 5:06 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: -There are seven Earths stacked on top of each other, and seven heavens likewise.

The "stacking on top of each other" of the Earths is nowhere in the Qur'an, and the claim of seven Earths/seven heavens is metaphysical. Again, no mistake here.

(April 15, 2022 at 5:06 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: -The sun and the moon are the same size, and the same distance from the Earth.

Idiotic allegation that is nowhere in the Qur'an. Pulled right out of your bottom. 

(April 15, 2022 at 5:06 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: -The moon once split in two and then reformed.

Miraculous claim, and can't be disproven. You can't tell the difference between a moon that was split and reformed by God and a moon that wasn't. Again, no mistake.

(April 15, 2022 at 5:06 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: -The moon does not shine by reflected light.

Another one you pulled right out of your bottom. The verse simply says the moon displays light, without mentioning its source, nor denying that it's reflected light. No mistake.

(April 15, 2022 at 5:06 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: -Meteors are missile Allah made to shoot at devils.

Metaphysical explanation that doesn't contradict the natural explanation of meteors. No mistake.

(April 15, 2022 at 5:06 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: -Pieces of the sky can fall and crush people. Same for stars.

The sky refers in the Qur'an to anything other than the Earth, and a fortiori anything in space, which includes asteroids that can obviously crush people. No mistake.

(April 15, 2022 at 5:06 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: -Heaven can be rolled up like a carpet.

Ironic, the verse is generally presented as miraculous foreknowledge. Modern science uses terms like bending / warping spacetime. The possibility of rolling it up like a carpet is indeed consistent with  the modern understanding of the fabric of the unierse, being literally malleable and warped by anything with mass.

Thanks for pointing out a Qur'anic miracle for us. I appreciate this.

(April 15, 2022 at 5:06 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: -Semen is produced somewhere between the spinal column and the ribs.

Testicles/ovaries are indeed formed in the abdomen during the first weeks of pregnancy, before descending to their permanent place in the pelvis. And both are sustained by arteries originating between the backbone and the ribcage. 

More Qur'anic miracles.. again, thanks.
(April 15, 2022 at 5:06 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: -A foetus is a blood clot.

Invalid translation.

https://quran.com/96?startingVerse=2

created humans from a clinging clot. (96:2)


The embryo does indeed resemble a leech. Obviously, there is no mistake here either.
Qur'anic revelation is the sole path to ultimate reality. All argumentation and philosophy is an expression of arrogance and an overestimation of human cognitive ability. 

"But believe me, Cleanthes, the most natural feeling that a well-disposed mind will have on this occasion is a longing desire and expectation that God will be pleased to remove or at least to lessen this profound ignorance, by giving mankind some particular revelation, revealing the nature, attributes, and operations of the divine object of our faith." (Hume's Dialogues)


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#45
RE: [Quranic reflection]: hell is a black hole-part III
(April 16, 2022 at 7:01 am)Jehanne Wrote: WinterHold,

I agree with Dr. Tyson's remarks; just so that my position is clear.  Islamic scholarship, a millennium ago, was laudable.

Dawn

That's the immense disappointment of islam in a nutshell.  Here was this religion that could have left more space for legitimate discovery.  

Failed.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#46
RE: [Quranic reflection]: hell is a black hole-part III
(April 16, 2022 at 4:34 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:
(April 15, 2022 at 5:06 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: -Geocentrism.

Misinformed liar. The Qur'an never says that the Sun revolves around the Earth, or that the Earth is static.

(April 15, 2022 at 5:06 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: -The sun sets in a muddy spring and rises in a village.

Read the verse again, you misinformed liar:

"until he reached the setting ˹point˺ of the sun, which appeared to him to be setting in a spring of murky water, where he found some people. We said, “O Ⱬul-Qarnain! Either punish them or treat them kindly.” (18:86)

https://quran.com/18?startingVerse=86

You removed the part in bold to make the verse fit your allegation. I am going to be kind and assume you're just a copycat who cluelessly regurgitates christian polemics.

And you pulled the "Sun rising in a village" bit right out of your bottom, afaik.

(April 15, 2022 at 5:06 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: -Creation in six days.

"Six days" is susceptible to many interpretations, given that the word "day" in the Qur'an refers in many verses to an arbitrary period of time. So, no mistake.

(April 15, 2022 at 5:06 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: -Earth is older than the stars.

Another instance of dishonest manipulation of the verses, let's read them together to really grasp how dishonest you are (or the idiots you're copying this from):

Ask ˹them, O  Prophet˺, “How can you disbelieve in the One Who created the earth in two Days? And how can you set up equals with Him? That is the Lord of all worlds. (41:9)

And then:

He placed on the earth firm mountains, standing high, showered His blessings upon it, and ordained ˹all˺ its means of sustenance—totaling four Days exactly1—for all who ask. (41:10)

And then:

Then He turned towards the heaven when it was ˹still like˺ smoke, saying to it and to the earth, ‘Submit, willingly or unwillingly.’ They both responded, ‘We submit willingly.’ (41:11)

The verse says : God turned towards the heaven, it doesn't say: God created the heaven. The heaven (e.g. the sky and all its contents)  was like smoke when God created the Earth, in other words, the heaven ALREADY EXISTED.

The verse that comes after is :

So He formed the heaven into seven heavens in two Days, assigning to each its mandate. And We adorned the lowest heaven with ˹stars like˺ lamps ˹for beauty˺ and for protection. That is the design of the Almighty, All-Knowing.” (41:12)

As you can see, the adverb "then" is used in the third verse and clearly indicates the chronological order of creation, in this last verse however, we have no adverb conveying chronological order, the verse just presents more information about how many heavens are there, and about creating stars, neither events can be said to have happened after God spoke to the heaven and the earth.

So the dishonest trick they do either  replace : "turned towards the heaven" by "created the heaven" or assume there is chronological order when there isn't. 

(April 15, 2022 at 5:06 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: -There are seven Earths stacked on top of each other, and seven heavens likewise.

The "stacking on top of each other" of the Earths is nowhere in the Qur'an, and the claim of seven Earths/seven heavens is metaphysical. Again, no mistake here.

(April 15, 2022 at 5:06 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: -The sun and the moon are the same size, and the same distance from the Earth.

Idiotic allegation that is nowhere in the Qur'an. Pulled right out of your bottom. 

(April 15, 2022 at 5:06 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: -The moon once split in two and then reformed.

Miraculous claim, and can't be disproven. You can't tell the difference between a moon that was split and reformed by God and a moon that wasn't. Again, no mistake.

(April 15, 2022 at 5:06 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: -The moon does not shine by reflected light.

Another one you pulled right out of your bottom. The verse simply says the moon displays light, without mentioning its source, nor denying that it's reflected light. No mistake.

(April 15, 2022 at 5:06 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: -Meteors are missile Allah made to shoot at devils.

Metaphysical explanation that doesn't contradict the natural explanation of meteors. No mistake.

(April 15, 2022 at 5:06 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: -Pieces of the sky can fall and crush people. Same for stars.

The sky refers in the Qur'an to anything other than the Earth, and a fortiori anything in space, which includes asteroids that can obviously crush people. No mistake.

(April 15, 2022 at 5:06 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: -Heaven can be rolled up like a carpet.

Ironic, the verse is generally presented as miraculous foreknowledge. Modern science uses terms like bending / warping spacetime. The possibility of rolling it up like a carpet is indeed consistent with  the modern understanding of the fabric of the unierse, being literally malleable and warped by anything with mass.

Thanks for pointing out a Qur'anic miracle for us. I appreciate this.

(April 15, 2022 at 5:06 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: -Semen is produced somewhere between the spinal column and the ribs.

Testicles/ovaries are indeed formed in the abdomen during the first weeks of pregnancy, before descending to their permanent place in the pelvis. And both are sustained by arteries originating between the backbone and the ribcage. 

More Qur'anic miracles.. again, thanks.
(April 15, 2022 at 5:06 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: -A foetus is a blood clot.

Invalid translation.

https://quran.com/96?startingVerse=2

created humans from a clinging clot. (96:2)


The embryo does indeed resemble a leech. Obviously, there is no mistake here either.

Honey, do you need some Midol?  You seem a bit tense today.
 “Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe.” ~Albert Einstein                                                 
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#47
RE: [Quranic reflection]: hell is a black hole-part III
(April 16, 2022 at 5:37 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: Honey, do you need some Midol?  You seem a bit tense today.

Yes, please.  Arrgghh
Qur'anic revelation is the sole path to ultimate reality. All argumentation and philosophy is an expression of arrogance and an overestimation of human cognitive ability. 

"But believe me, Cleanthes, the most natural feeling that a well-disposed mind will have on this occasion is a longing desire and expectation that God will be pleased to remove or at least to lessen this profound ignorance, by giving mankind some particular revelation, revealing the nature, attributes, and operations of the divine object of our faith." (Hume's Dialogues)


Reply
#48
RE: [Quranic reflection]: hell is a black hole-part III
(April 16, 2022 at 5:55 pm)Klorophyll Wrote:
(April 16, 2022 at 5:37 pm)arewethereyet Wrote: Honey, do you need some Midol?  You seem a bit tense today.

Yes, please.  Arrgghh

Give me a few minutes, I'll have to run to the store.   Hilarious
 “Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I’m not sure about the universe.” ~Albert Einstein                                                 
Reply
#49
RE: [Quranic reflection]: hell is a black hole-part III
(April 16, 2022 at 6:11 pm)arewethereyet Wrote:
(April 16, 2022 at 5:55 pm)Klorophyll Wrote: Yes, please.  Arrgghh

Give me a few minutes, I'll have to run to the store.   Hilarious

When choosing medication for an Islamic zealot, please choose carefully, and beware of any drug interactions and other side effects.
And without delay Peter went quickly out of the synagogue (assembly) and went unto the house of Marcellus, where Simon lodged: and much people followed him...And Peter turned unto the people that followed him and said: Ye shall now see a great and marvellous wonder. And Peter seeing a great dog bound with a strong chain, went to him and loosed him, and when he was loosed the dog received a man's voice and said unto Peter: What dost thou bid me to do, thou servant of the unspeakable and living God? Peter said unto him: Go in and say unto Simon in the midst of his company: Peter saith unto thee, Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And immediately the dog ran and entered in, and rushed into the midst of them that were with Simon, and lifted up his forefeet and in a loud voice said: Thou Simon, Peter the servant of Christ who standeth at the door saith unto thee: Come forth abroad, for thy sake am I come to Rome, thou most wicked one and deceiver of simple souls. And when Simon heard it, and beheld the incredible sight, he lost the words wherewith he was deceiving them that stood by, and all of them were amazed. (The Acts of Peter, 9)
Reply
#50
RE: [Quranic reflection]: hell is a black hole-part III
(April 16, 2022 at 4:54 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote:
(April 16, 2022 at 7:01 am)Jehanne Wrote: WinterHold,

I agree with Dr. Tyson's remarks; just so that my position is clear.  Islamic scholarship, a millennium ago, was laudable.

Dawn

That's the immense disappointment of islam in a nutshell.  Here was this religion that could have left more space for legitimate discovery.  

Failed.

I would say: "here are the followers of Islam shocked by the Mongol sack of Baghdad and the Islamic empire; having 600 years of scientific discoveries drowned in the Euphrates; having their women, men, children and loved ones ending up butchered and raped:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Baghdad_(1258)

Muslims never woke up from that shock until today.

You can break a whole nation if you gave it enough brutality and monstrosity.
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