Abortion-Killing: The Silent Genocide: 2 Billion Deaths Victims Worldwide.

[Angrboda]

[Astreja]

John Dominic Crossan, a Liberal Scholar said: "That Jesus was crucified (under Pontius Pilate) is as certain as anything historical can ever be".

If one is uncertain, one should Pray, examine Public Miracles like those at Marian Apparition Sites, the Shroud of Turin, Eucharistic Miracles, etc.

Well, a historical Jesus may have existed, and he may have been crucified, but I believe that he's now dead as a doornail.

And why would anyone pray to something that they don't even think is there, or believe in apparitions, pieces of inadequately-examined cloth that's a thousand years older than it's alleged to be, or "miracles" that can be faked by a priest by biting one's lip and smearing some blood on a Jesus Krisp?

[Bucky Ball]

And Don't Forget To Examine All The Other Miracles Of All The Other Miracle Workers Of Jesus' Day.
Paul Did Miracles. Read Acts.

"There are numerous reports of healing and exorcism from the period of Jesus, some of them Greek, others Roman, still others Jewish. So, in one sense, Jesus was not as unique as some Christians might like to think. Their Lord fits into a cultural context well accustomed to the supernatural; it was a ‘magical’ world."
https://www.publicchristianity.org/was-j...rk-unique/

Do we have any converts yet ? Raise you hands. No ? No ?
LOL

[no one]

Hey coward, you still haven't answered me, you fucking cunt!

[Bucky Ball]

Lol, we're all going to be non-sentient in the After-Life according to you, remember? You won't even get a minute to brag you were right, if in fact you are.

GN, you should read the Didache. It comes from Christ's Apostles and suffices to refute your claim. It condemns Abortion. When my 30 days are up, I'll give the link. You can find it online. As for whatever passage you're talking about, give me chapter and verse and I'll look it up, and the Church Father's interpretations on it, and get back to you.

Nope. It comes from the Dead Sea Scrolls and was written for Jews, and expanded. 
The Apostles were (if they were real at all), illiterate fishermen, who wrote nothing. 

"Rordorf considered the first five chapters as "essentially Jewish, but the Christian community was able to use it" by adding the "evangelical section"

You should learn some real history, NX. You're kind of a quack. A pretender. You're not authorized to preach. You're a scandal here.
Crossen is an ex-priest, I hope you know. He's not really an archaeologist.

They should also read Josephus.
He wrote an entire book showing that the Roman Emperor (Vespasian) was the Messiah, and the book starts out with Vespasian's miracles.
Of course Vespasian was paying him, but what the hay.

[Deesse23]

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This is from Christianity Today, just pointing that there are Pro-Life Atheists for purely Scientific Moral Reasons: "Monica Snyder gave up her childhood faith. But she never stopped being pro-life. She opposes abortion for different reasons than her Catholic parents. Snyder doesn’t believe fetuses are made in the image of God. She doesn’t think they have eternal souls. Though her arguments differ, as an atheist with a master’s degree in forensic science from the University of California, Davis, her conclusions are the same: Human life begins with the zygote, and abortion is almost always wrong."

Bucky, there are 4 major ideologies in the world as a whole: (1) Christianity, (2) Islam, (3) Hinduism, and (4) Atheism. The views of Pro-Life Christians on the Abortion issue, clearly stated in the Didache, as the Lord's Teaching to the heathen through His 12 Apostles, and which guided Judeo-Christian Western Civilization, for nearly 2000 years, until the 1970s, are too well known to bear repeating. Let's come to Hinduism next. Wiki says this: "Some Hindu scriptures assert that "abortion is a worse sin than killing one's parents"; Islam has some slight differences, but it is similar: "In Shia Islam, abortion is "forbidden after implantation of the fertilised ovum." Together, the first 3 ideologies represent roughly 75% of the world's population.

And, ever hear the saying, "Tradition is the Democracy of the Dead/Departed". I believe you're a former Catholic yourself (correct me if I'm wrong) based on some things you've said elsewhere, so you'd understand why that is. We are talking of a Near-Universal Moral Consensus that Abortion was wrong in major different civilizations, from America and Europe to the Middle East to India to elsewhere - before the rise of Communism, Atheism and modern pro-choicers. So, in light of that, while it's true that, in the last 50 years, there have been and are many pro-choicers today, in light of the historical consensus, in light of the fact that there are now strong pro-life movements everywhere, including among the young, that may not mean very much, and quite soon. We will see how things go: and btw, another point is worth noting - nations that promote more or less unlimited abortion generally have poor demographics, low fertility rates, and so the future of abortionist ideology is not good for that reason also.

Yes, we are aware there are different people today, with influence first from Marxist, and now liberal Western culture, who interpret traditional moral and religious teaching in a liberal way; but we will see how things turn as more and more people understand all of cultural, moral, religious and scientific reasons why Abortion is wrong - including that Atheist with a master's degree I mentioned above.

As for US law, I will note the US declaration of Independence speaks of God-Given human rights as a self-evident Moral Truth. God-Given human rights begin to exist when life itself begins to exist. But, it is now scientifically known - it may not have been known them - life begins at Conception. Therefore, God-given human rights begin to exist at conception. Many roads lead to the same conclusion, because the conclusion is true. When you see Pythagoras Theorem for e.g. or any axiom proved in multiple independent ways, it increases the confidence in the strength of the conclusion. The same is true of moral conclusions.

Now, as a practical matter, not only this or that person, but even I, a Pro-Lifer, and I think many other Pro-Lifers too, are in favor of making exceptions for now, for rape, incest etc. Since 2 BN roughly have been killed in 50 years, that's roughly 40 MN children a year. I'm in favor of anything that saves lives, while in time, especially as more scientific discoveries are made, and it becomes more and more clear Life begins at Conception - and it's also quite possible it may be shown children in the womb can feel pain even earlier than believed right now; see below - in time, the consensus will form for democratic pro-life action, just like the Abolitionist movement gradually gained strength.  

[Source, Wiki: "As recently as 1999, it was widely believed by medical professionals that babies could not feel pain until they were a year old, but today it is believed newborns and likely even fetuses beyond a certain age can experience pain."]

In time, Moral Truth prevails over Moral Error. It did on slavery and racism and eugenics and many other evils, and it will do so on abortion.

Angrboda: just a quick word to you, if you deny all human beings have all human rights, you lose the basis for saying many things are wrong that we would both otherwise affirm. In fact, any sub-section of humanity could then be denied human rights, either the young, or the old, or children below say, 3 years, or the aged near death, or this or that gender, or race, etc. Because Rights are Natural, either all human beings have rights, or no human being has rights. Human Beings have Natural Human Rights, i.e. by Nature of being human. The moment you say all those who are human beings by nature need not have all the human rights that flow from that nature legally recognized in law, you open a Pandora's Box. Any and every form of discrimination or denial of human rights to a particular few arbitrarily deemed as "sub-human non persons" would be possible.

What are your thoughts on that paper I mentioned arguing for "Post Birth Abortion"? 

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Your unconvincing opinions are noted. They are not important here. Neither are some cherry-picked opinion of a forensic person.
I'm sure anyone can find someone to agree or disagree with anything. It's not how too argue.
Regurgitating old Roman Catholic shit is boring and a waste of time.  
Your god is the worst abortionist of all time.  

The first rule of debate, is "know your opponent". You are obviously new to debate. This is an atheist site.

There is no agreement in science or among OBGYN physicians when "conception" occurs. 
You don't know when conception occurs.

I starting to see there is no point to all this fuzz. 18 pages of "abortion is murder. Human rights for fetuses! Time to outlaw abortion!", yet i havent read a single word about what the punishment is suuposed to be. 1y, 10y, 20y? With or without parole? Not.a.single.word.
Lets grant NX that abortion is going to be ilegal, and keep aborting anyway. He hasnt said a single word about consequences other than maybe eternal hell in which no one believes anyway.

[Bucky Ball]

Your unconvincing opinions are noted. They are not important here. Neither are some cherry-picked opinion of a forensic person.
I'm sure anyone can find someone to agree or disagree with anything. It's not how too argue.
Regurgitating old Roman Catholic shit is boring and a waste of time.  
Your god is the worst abortionist of all time.  

The first rule of debate, is "know your opponent". You are obviously new to debate. This is an atheist site.

There is no agreement in science or among OBGYN physicians when "conception" occurs. 
You don't know when conception occurs.

I starting to see there is no point to all this fuzz. 18 pages of "abortion is murder. Human rights for fetuses! Time to outlaw abortion!", yet i havent read a single word about what the punishment is suuposed to be. 1y, 10y, 20y? With or without parole? Not.a.single.word.
Lets grant NX that abortion is going to be illegal, and keep aborting anyway. He hasn't said a single word about consequences other than maybe eternal hell in which no one believes anyway. 

The really interesting thing for me about this exact point, (I was thinking the other day I should bring it up) ....
society in general gives sentences which are in no way commensurate with what they claim the act is. I know there are 
proposals (in Texas maybe) for life sentences for abortion, but in general, if it's really "murder" they are extraordinarily light. 3 years, 5 years etc. 
They obviously aren't serious about a murder charge. It's something else and clearly they (the legislatures) don't really buy that it's "murdering a baby" or they would all be life sentences or death sentences. 

She came out today and told us she is a female, who considered abortion, and would have done it, "with no regrets" ... that's some sort of hypocrisy to admit that !
Anyway, clearly society does NOT consider it murder. I've been wondering about the 6 week bans, the 12 week bans .... and for both, there are never any specifics. 
I think they are all going to get tossed for being "arbitrary and capricious". They are based on nothing.  

Not sure how long this is going to take, but I firmly believe there is another shoe to drop here. It may have already starting in Idaho or Wyoming. 
I think there is a Federal law, (it might be just a regulation)  which requires hospitals which accept Medicare to give a person the best care available, or whatever the (ie nationally accepted community standard) normal care for cases that come into the ED. That means if a woman is miscarrying and normally (before their new laws) they MUST treat with the best known care, whatever that is, including terminating the pregnancy. Eventually it will go back to that.  When that comes up, the shit will hit the fan, and it will go national. No hospital can afford to not accept Medicare. They would have to close. 

Found it, it's Idaho ...  https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-d...ive-rights

[Bucky Ball]

Lol. If this were a liberal Christian forum, and you were all committing abortions because you just-were-oh-so-convinced God allegedly wanted you to, then I would take the trouble to compile various sources from Scripture and Tradition showing that God condemns abortion. Since you are Atheists, I hardly cited any Scripture, or Church Fathers, for that matter, but made mostly Philosophical Arguments from Human Rights etc, which Christians and Atheists mostly agree on.

Here is Church Father Tertullian exegete one Biblical Passage against Abortion: "“The law of Moses, indeed, punishes with due penalties the man who shall cause abortion [Ex. 21:22–24]” (The Soul 25 [A.D. 210]). Christianity has condemned Abortion consistently for 2000 years. Even Wikipedia acknowledges this. Next.

If this were a Christian forum, we all would not be allowed to post, unlike here where you are allowed to post.

[Bucky Ball]

GN. You should read what Christiano Ronaldo said to a Reporter: "′My mother raised me by sacrificing her life for me. She slept hungry so I could eat at night. We had no money at all. She worked 7 days a week and evenings as a cleaner to buy my first football equipment so that I could become a player, my complete success is dedicated to her. And as long as I live, she will always be by my side and have everything I can give her.". See the difference between children raised with Good Pro-Life Values (Christiano Ronaldo, apart from being perhaps the World's Most Famous Footballer, is also a Devout Catholic), and those raised with false Pro-Abort "values", who'd just effectively euthanize their parents, as even Aegon said above, by abandoning, forsaking, never visiting, never caring, never sending money etc etc to parents. Btw, everyone should save up a fair amount of their own for their own Retirement of course, but absolutely children, now all grown up and Adults, can and should help their parents in every way, as and when they really need it. Not all help need be financial of course, but financial help is included; often aged parents just need love and care, should be visited now and then etc. Neither is this a matter of legality but of moral obligation, which those raised with non-abort good values know intuitively.

What you really should reflect on is the horror of the Throwaway Abortionist Culture of Death you're building. It doesn't have to be that way. But yes, that's what would happen in time; I suppose Hindus would call it Karma. Parents want to kill children and don't care for them; children will do the same. Parents loved their children and gave their best for them when they could; children will do the same in return. As you sow, so shall you reap.

As for me, I too was born poor. My dad died a young age, may his Soul rest in Peace. My Mother worked hard for me, and I will never forget her Love and Sacrifices. Now that I'm fairly well-off, of course I can and do and will provide the very best things for her in return. That's what family is. As for when/if I get married, of course, I will provide for my wife and children most of all; that's what fathers should do. But for my dear mother also as and when she needs help. That's what family is supposed to do, and I pity those who think fornication, divorce, abortion, adultery, etc will lead to happiness instead of marriage, faithfulness, family and love. Even in this life, it almost certainly will not, to say nothing of the next.

It all goes back to Marx and his Militant Atheism, and then the Promotion of Abortion by Bolshevik Communists in Russia. That's where all these horrors of Abortion began and why more than 2 BN children have had to be killed before the world learns the Truth. Carry on, we're seeing how it ends up. We will continue to Pray and Work for Universal Abolition of Abortion. May the Best Ideology, and the Real Truth, win out in the end.

Hymn4n: "In my case, someone who has never believed and wasn’t given the evidence that god gave you that it exists , that me being aborted would have been far better for me than being born to a world Satan controls, never believing and being tortured for all eternity for not believing?"

Well, firstly, who told you you necessarily have to go to Hell and face eternal torment? If you want to go to Heaven, you know what you have to do, believe in Christ as Savior, be Baptized, love God and your neighbor, receive the Sacraments, and live a holy life keeping the Commandments.

Baptized Adults can merit a higher degree of glory in Heaven than Baptized Children who die in infancy can receive; every good work done in the State of Grace merits an Eternal Reward, and the Greater Good Works one has done, the More Suffering one has endured with Love for God and one's neighbor, the higher will be one's Heavenly Crown. Thus, the Lord Jesus said in Rev 2:10: "Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the Crown of Life". and in Revelation 12 He gave the example of His Mother, Who has received the Highest Heavenly Crown after Him: "12 A great sign appeared in heaven: a Woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under Her Feet and a Crown of Twelve Stars on Her Head." This was Her own Reward for accompanying Christ in His Sufferings, as Christiano Ronaldo's mother did in his. See the difference between Christ's Philosophy, which can lead to the Greatest Happiness in Heaven and a fair degree of Happiness right here on Earth, and that of poor worldlings like Karl Marx. Therefore, you should not regret you did not die in infancy, because you can still merit a higher degree of glory in Heaven by accepting the life God has given you here and now, and using it to do good.

And speaking of the Blessed Mother of God, I mentioned how She ended Infanticide in Mexico by appearing to St. Juan Diego in the Apparition known as Our Lady of Gaudalupe. Btw, those who have doubts about the Faith should study that Apparition, and the Public Miracles that accompanied it including the Image itself, which caused nearly 10 Million Mexicans to become Catholic Christian and literally beg Priests day and night to baptize them; such that some Priests baptized nearly a 1 MN with their own hand. And in more recent times, in a contemporary Apparition, the Mother of God said on Abortion and Gaudalupe: "My daughter, I continue to come to you under this title of Guadalupe so that mankind will pursue reconciliation with God. During this time all that calls you back to God - faith, prayer, holiness, life itself - is opposed and persecuted in the world. The sins today are more grievous and more offensive to God than any, for they are not committed through pagan ignorance but by those who say or pretend to love My Jesus or who once loved Him." (She has tears coming down Her cheeks.) "My Immaculate Heart is held in contempt by many when it is always and should be a sign of Refuge. The Angel Gabriel addressed Me as ‘full of grace.' My grace is not for Me but for all people - all nations."

Nothing is set in stone. The world we want to build and leave to ourselves and our future children is up to decide: a culture that welcomes life, and that respects parents in old age, or a throwaway culture of death that is all that abortion culture can produce. May God have Mercy on us all.

Why did you take out the part where yesterday you said you formed a firm intention to commit a mortal sin, (have an abortion, if you got pregnant from your former husband) and do not regret it, (ie are unrepentant about it) ? Best get thee to confession girlfriend. How scandalous you are, here, preaching at others, and do not see the beam in your own eye. People go to hell for this sort of thing. Stating she would do the very thing she says we can't do, and has NO REGRETS about it. That's probably the most hypocritical thing I've ever read. You are not licensed to preach. This says you're a father. Yesterday you said you were woman. WTAF ? Woah, have you lost your damn mind ?

[Deesse23]

I starting to see there is no point to all this fuzz. 18 pages of "abortion is murder. Human rights for fetuses! Time to outlaw abortion!", yet i havent read a single word about what the punishment is suuposed to be. 1y, 10y, 20y? With or without parole? Not.a.single.word.
Lets grant NX that abortion is going to be illegal, and keep aborting anyway. He hasn't said a single word about consequences other than maybe eternal hell in which no one believes anyway. 

The really interesting thing for me about this exact point, (I was thinking the other day I should bring it up) ....
society in general gives sentences which are in no way commensurate with what they claim the act is. I know there are 
proposals (in Texas maybe) for life sentences for abortion, but in general, if it's really "murder" they are extraordinarily light. 3 years, 5 years etc. 
They obviously aren't serious about a murder charge. It's something else and clearly they (the legislatures) don't really buy that it's "murdering a baby" or they would all be life sentences or death sentences. 

Thats where i wanted to get to with NX, and he knew it as well. Thats why he avoided adressing it, at all cost (talking about Lincoln. natural abortions, suddenly portraying women as victims of abortionism, practicing forgiveness, etc.)

If he was consistent, he had to ask to punish murder according to what he calls "murder".  He seems to either be a better person than he is representing here , or he hasnt thought it through, or he doesnt care as much about Fetuses, or he is already knowing he is a misogynist liar. The last remaining option is that he really says what he thinks, and life should be a proper punishment. But still he avoided proudly fully presenting his position (which he otherwise loves to do, in every.single.thread.he.created). In this case he also seems to be aware that his position is commonly seen as barbaric.

There is no potential way for him to adress this dilemma at all, without looking like a fool, liar or barbarian, or a combination of the above.