The Issue of Idolatry in Abrahamic Religions

[Leonardo17]

There isn't a whole, or a partial, science to crystals.  You're right that they're not idols, they're often employed as fetishes and totems...but here's the question I have-  

Why would it be bad if you -did- worship them?  So god is a jealous god.  Is he going to hurt you if you want to see other people?  As for whether or not you can grab a magic book and then start harassing passersby on a street corner...yeah, you can do that, it happens with some regularity.

The way I see it:
 
If you don’t believe in God as a cosmic person that’s fine.
 
If you don’t believe in an Original Cause or Supreme / Ultimate Reality that’s also fine.
 
If you have idols, fetishes or totems within this three dimensional reality even that doesn’t mean you are the worst possible being in this three dimensional existence.
 
But if you believe in a Higher Reality and if you misplace your faith in this higher reality, you may end up (for instance) murdering other people in the name of that “Higher Reality” and therefore I think it’s rather normal for any God that is potentially real to try to warn people on such issues

[The Grand Nudger]

Trouble with that is that it told them to murder people - and not to worship other shit. You must realize that the crystal crazed folks (and pagans in general) are notoriously pacifistic right? There aren't a whole lot of murderous hippies. Beyond the contradiction of mere fact in taboo between murder and worship, the kind of god you're talking about would have to be an idiot to believe as much, as well.

These are the sorts of issues we both run into, and create ourselves, when we try to retcon a murderous ideology to our more dainty contemporary sensibilities. You are not going to able to derive or devise a credible line of argumentation for your viewpoint from within abrahamic traditions. The only murder that idolatry appears to cause is the murder of the idolators by abrahamic cultists.

[Leonardo17]

Trouble with that is that it told them to murder people - and not to worship other shit.  You must realize that the crystal crazed folks (and pagans in general) are notoriously pacifistic right?  There aren't a whole lot of murderous hippies.  Beyond the contradiction of mere fact in taboo between murder and worship, the kind of god you're talking about would have to be an idiot to believe as much, as well.

These are the sorts of issues we both run into, and create ourselves, when we try to retcon a murderous ideology to our more dainty contemporary sensibilities.  You are not going to able to derive or devise a credible line of argumentation for your viewpoint from within abrahamic traditions.  The only murder that idolatry appears to cause is the murder of the idolators by abrahamic cultists.

I still condemn those heinous attacks in Israel. And I’m going to quote Pope Francis on the events that are happening since Saturday Morning (Local time):
 
"I follow with apprehension and sorrow what is happening in Israel, I express my solidarity with the relatives of the victims, and I pray for all those who are experiencing hours of terror and anguish,"
 
"Let the attacks and weapons cease, please, because it must be understood that terrorism and war bring no solutions, but only to the death and suffering of many innocent lives. War is a defeat, every war is a defeat. Let us pray for peace in Israel and Palestine,"

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/ I do not disagree with the Atheist viewpoint on this. Its true many religious people see themselves as separate clans who are fighting one another for a different God.

 
Yes. But there are also people like me. Our issue is the Principle beyond the faith. So the faith or doctrine is a road map leading to that Singularity. And since that Singularity is one and the same (everywhere). When I see a different faith I see a mirror, a friend.
 
So yes. In today’s circumstances Atheism is the best logical and permanent option for everyone. But no, I don’t describe such people as people “of the same faith”. If these are Muslims than people should know me as a Rasta from now on
 
Also, this is not related to the subject but, I know that many Jews around the world are critical of the policies of the State of Israel. And that’s all I’m going to say on that.
 
So the main issue here is when did we (Muslims) ceased to be civilized?
 
My answer: When our religious doctrine what turned into a Golden Cow (or idol) by political Islamists.
 
Someone who does not condemn the murderous attacks that are happening in the last two days is either evil or this person is a fanatic. Being a fanatic means you have lost your sense of judgement because of some form of obsessive and false interpretation of your religious doctrine. And that’s Idolatry.
 
So not only will I do as the Pope says, but I will also try to include those perpetrators in my prayers (after I’m done using swearwords on them).
 

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[The Grand Nudger]

As a famous us politician once said, roughly, I guess that you just aren't as angry about it as those true believers are. As I consistently suggest, islamists aren't doing it wrong, you are, to your great credit - even if you're dealing with some latent cultural islamism in your own attempt to shove it's square peg down your round hole. You appear, from the outside, to be deluding yourself a great deal on this count. There was never a time that islam was anything else my dude. Atheism isn't the best option to this problem, it's not even an option, and never could be. Atheism has nothing to say on ethics, and yours is an ethical objection. The islamic golden age (and every golden age of every great nation as we tell it) is defined as it's military apex, peak conquest. That's what it meant to be "civilized" and that's what perpetually sends you down unproductive avenues. The best way to tell how civilized people were was how efficiently they slaughtered and exploited the savages. Undeniably proof, not simply in theory but in actual practice, we've long believed, of the superiority of our tribes, and our tribes gods. Frankly, it's only when we begin to fail to successfully shit on the other guy when we start to worry that our ideology is in decline or our patron gods have abandoned us.

That's a good quote, though, every war is a defeat. OTOH, I somehow doubt that praying about it will help, if it was going to, it already would have. If the king of the catholics wants to do something about it he has much better tools at his disposal than prayer...and he knows that, just as much as I do.

I'm right there with you in the cult of the peace plant, lol..but, buddy, you probably ought to be careful who you tell that too, especially in the company of believing abrahamists. They have never responded well to that, it's not something they one day started flipping out about. The faith has always felt a certain violent way..toward idolatry, and you're still close enough to that belief to come up with absurd explanations for it. Food for thought. I went out and performed some idolatry with a patch of berries today, and not a single jew was harmed.

[LinuxGal]

That's a good quote, though, every war is a defeat.  OTOH, I somehow doubt that praying about it will help, if it was going to, it already would have.  If the king of the catholics wants to do something about it he has much better tools at his disposal than prayer...and he knows that, just as much as I do.

Aragorn: "War with Sauron has come!  Gondor calls for aid!"

Theoden: "Rohan sends well-wishes in solidarity with the city of Minas Tirith!"

[The Grand Nudger]

A much more succinct distillation of my thoughts. The contention of all of your posts on this subject, Leo, is to propose that if people believed in theism...rightly, then good things would happen. That, once upon a time, theism was believed in rightly and better things were happening. I challenge this assertion fundamentally and I think that as a sort of wandering thinker this sis something you might want to consider. That theism cannot be believed in rightly in this way. The very act of imagining gods to be personal and intervening is to create these poor outcomes. There's no rightly or wrongly about it. None of this is a bug. It's not malfunctioning.

[Leonardo17]

As a famous us politician once said, roughly, I guess that you just aren't as angry about it as those true believers are. As I consistently suggest, islamists aren't doing it wrong, you are, to your great credit - even if you're dealing with some latent cultural islamism in your own attempt to shove it's square peg down your round hole.  You appear, from the outside, to be deluding yourself a great deal on this count.  There was never a time that islam was anything else my dude.  Atheism isn't the best option to this problem, it's not even an option, and never could be.  Atheism has nothing to say on ethics, and yours is an ethical objection.  The islamic golden age (and every golden age of every great nation as we tell it) is defined as it's military apex, peak conquest.  That's what it meant to be "civilized" and that's what perpetually sends you down unproductive avenues.  The best way to tell how civilized people were was how efficiently they slaughtered and exploited the savages.  Undeniably proof, not simply in theory but in actual practice, we've long believed, of the superiority of our tribes, and our tribes gods.  Frankly, it's only when we begin to fail to successfully shit on the other guy when we start to worry that our ideology is in decline or our patron gods have abandoned us.

That's a good quote, though, every war is a defeat.  OTOH, I somehow doubt that praying about it will help, if it was going to, it already would have.  If the king of the catholics wants to do something about it he has much better tools at his disposal than prayer...and he knows that, just as much as I do.

I'm right there with you in the cult of the peace plant, lol..but, buddy, you probably ought to be careful who you tell that too, especially in the company of believing abrahamists.  They have never responded well to that, it's not something they one day started flipping out about.  The faith has always felt a certain violent way..toward idolatry, and you're still close enough to that belief to come up with absurd explanations for it.  Food for thought.  I went out and performed some idolatry with a patch of berries today, and not a single jew was harmed.

The World is not a paradise. Of course in ancient times everything was essentially based on you military power.
 
   Still, when he took Constantinople in 1453, Mehmed II went to the Church of Holy Wisdom (Where local Christian’s had gathered hoping for a divine miracle) and told them “All of you have become my subjects now. You may return to your homes without any fear”
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of...man_Empire
 

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It is a common misconception that there is no Honor in war (And this one is from the Novel “The Kite Runner” by Khaled Hosseini in the part in which there is a dialogue between the father of the main character and a Russian Soldier in the Afghan-Pakistani border). Don’t misunderstand me. War cannot be anything but ugly. Still there used to be and has to be some rules of engagement.
 
One issue is that war is fought between able bodied men. And other than that, an attitude of pure vengeance is not / cannot be the solution to anything.
 
And these are not religious principles. It’s basic morality + basic logic.
 
So I do believe that the state is doing many things wrong. I know there are Jews around the world that will agree with me. I am also critical of the international community and politicians in general. That’s because we once had a mess in Cyprus and we solved it. We had a mess at the collapse of Yugoslavia and we solved it. There was a mess in Afghanistan, At least we saw that a solution was not entirely impossible. So I am also furious about a situation there that goes on and on (not that I am suggest any involvement by any single party into what is already an enormous mess. I believe in some form of diplomatic solution that is backed by the UN and the international community).
 
So I also have this anger toward Israel’s policies. Yet… I mean did you see the pictures at the music festival? I mean WTF is going on?
 
So anyways. Back to my topic. God says “Vengeance is mine” Meaning (as I understand it) we don’t create alternatives to God nor do we act in pure vengeance in the name of those idols. “Vengeance is mine” means, God does that. Not us.
 
As I said: twisted ideologies or approaches toward religious ideas want us to forget some of these “basics”. But these are as I said, the “main tools”. So on the contrary, If all you care about is brutal vengeance, than what is the point of studying any spiritual approach or dogma at all? If Steven Paddock could do it so so can you. You don’t even need an ideology for that, so Just do it I mean…
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Las_Vegas_shooting)
 

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[Leonardo17]

A  much more succinct distillation of my thoughts.  The contention of all of your posts on this subject, Leo, is to propose that if people believed in theism...rightly, then good things would happen.  That, once upon a time, theism was believed in rightly and better things were happening.  I challenge this assertion fundamentally and I think that as a sort of wandering thinker this sis something you might want to consider.  That theism cannot be believed in rightly in this way.  The very act of imagining gods to be personal and intervening is to create these poor outcomes.  There's no rightly or wrongly about it.  None of this is a bug.  It's not malfunctioning.

  I never said that. To some people it’s a walk in the mountains, to some people it’s voluntary work with the homeless, to some people it’s the struggle for a political party, to others it’s art, philosophy, Theatre and other stuff like that. Everyone has his/her own way of “getting your mind right”. You know, For Bob Marley (who was some sort of saint) it was Mary Jane, so whatever is your poison, just take it (as long as it doesn’t harm you).
 

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A spiritual person, is simply a person who sees value in the core message of this or that religious doctrine and tries to use that as his/her “poison” if you like.
 
That’s all there is to it.
 
My issue is not atheism (which I see as a totally legitimate stance toward religion). My issue is pure distortion and hypocrisy. There approaches have harmed us in the past and are harming us today. I am not saying that even half of Muslims are seeing things the way I do. Because it’s not true. I am only saying that humanity is not a finished work. We are evolving. We are changing. And we have to if we want to solve the issue in Israel for instance. A new approach is definitely needed. And that includes religion.
 
So in my doctrine (and in other religious doctrines) there is a growing number of people who are more rational and more grounded than previous generations. And the reason why I’m getting more vocal on this is that there isn’t another way anymore. Look at the case of Armita Geravand for instance. We didn’t have that sort of things in past. In medieval Arabia there was a police force inspecting people in the market etc. There was no one to tell you to wear a headscarf. This is an invention of political islamists.
 
And Again, I see political islamists as a Neo-Nazi type of ideology who misuse religion to keep doing what they are doing.
 
+ Political Islaminst want Palestinians to be treated as badly as possible because the more desperate the Palestinian people are. The more suicide bombers they will have from all around the world. To me this is Benitto Mussolini reloaded. These guys are not a part of my faith. And I am here to explain you why this is 100% impossible. Not in this world. Not in this dimension.
 

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[Ahriman]

There isn't a whole, or a partial, science to crystals.  You're right that they're not idols, they're often employed as fetishes and totems...but here's the question I have-  

Why would it be bad if you -did- worship them?  So god is a jealous god.  Is he going to hurt you if you want to see other people?  As for whether or not you can grab a magic book and then start harassing passersby on a street corner...yeah, you can do that, it happens with some regularity.

The way I see it:
 
If you don’t believe in God as a cosmic person that’s fine.
 
If you don’t believe in an Original Cause or Supreme / Ultimate Reality that’s also fine.
 
If you have idols, fetishes or totems within this three dimensional reality even that doesn’t mean you are the worst possible being in this three dimensional existence.
 
But if you believe in a Higher Reality and if you misplace your faith in this higher reality, you may end up (for instance) murdering other people in the name of that “Higher Reality” and therefore I think it’s rather normal for any God that is potentially real to try to warn people on such issues

I have been warned concerning the misuse of "higher reality" inclinations, by someone in real life, I believe I dwell in that "higher reality" and have even tried to go beyond it, but failed.