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The Abrahamic sacrifice of his son.
#1
The Abrahamic sacrifice of his son.
In Islam, you might not know this. But there was a mystic interpretation by some Sufis, that in fact, Abraham mixed his vision from God (it was partially from God) and couldn't distinguish in his vision/dream like state, whether or not God ordered him literally to kill him or not. He saw it that God ordered him, but he was mistaken.   Satan made him see it literally, while God wanted him to let go of his earthly attachments to his son. It was meant to be metaphorical, but, they thought God was serious.

One of the most interesting revelations happen is that Isaac which means laughter or God's laughter, was given to Sarah when she despaired, and the Angels told her it meant laughter and it made her laugh.

God didn't let the sacrifice happen, and God is not a deceiver, so the fault is on Abraham, for thinking God was literally wanting to kill his son and his son literally trusting his fathers judgement and interpretation of his vision.

What is the big lesson in this to humans?

Even when you get spiritual visions, even when you think you know, question, perhaps you misinterpreted a revelation words, and even if you think you are sure it means something, it might mean something else. 

If a great Prophet like Abraham can get things wrong and misinterpret his dream, by a suggestion from Iblis, and which God wanted really just for him to let go of attachment which is manifested in the sacrifice of the sheep, and it's a great sacrifice to let go of attachment, ready to kill even your son, true, but God wanted him to let go of attachment, not literally kill him....if he can get it wrong, we can be wrong too in how we perceive scriptures.

Re-Assessment is then always needed. 

If a great Prophet like Abraham can mislead to kill innocent life, no one is really safe, from us way below his wisdom, intelligence, and insight. We may feel we will never, but in a time of war, we may be mislead and choose the wrong side.


In all this, we must seek refuge in guidance from God. The leaders that are guided by God become a refuge of safety.

Noah also misunderstood God's words before. He thought God promised to save his family in the sense everyone understands family to mean. But his son perished.

So he misunderstood, and began to doubt, and ask God regarding that, saying indeed you are truthful in your promise, so there must be a contradiction. God than advises him saying he is not of your family for his action is other then righteous, meaning what God meant by family was something else, than says, don't ask me regarding what you have no knowledge of saying he seeks refuge from Noah doing that lest become of the ignorant.

God knew Adam and Noah and Abraham would all turn back to guidance, but even them, without God guiding them and admonishing them, would have fell into ignorance.

What is the relevance on an Atheist forum? It's as if Quran among other things and purposes of these verses is saying, don't impose ignorant interpretations on what you don't know to be from God and truly what would be meant by God if God recited the Quran, and then put these paradigms and then reject it.

The interpretation of holy books is no easy subject. There is so many lessons to learn from this. And I can go on and on from hadiths to Quran, and the misguidance of the Muslims, but we are to rely and reflect, and we definitely will conclude things wrong at a certain point.

What matters is you seek clarification, and keeping reflecting and trying to see guidance.

God didn't throw Abraham into hell because he misinterpreted in a very bad manner his dream, neither did Noah perish, but rather, God wishes to guide humans in the paradigm of Quran.

So whatever you assume of Quran, I would give it another chance.  Same with other holy books. And try to replace your assumptions with different perceptions and more charitable reasoned interpretations.
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#2
RE: The Abrahamic sacrifice of his son.
Here we go again.
Abraham probably didn't exist, and even if he did, I couldn't care less.  
Stories that old are almost always cobbled together from earlier fictions.
However, it is really quite amazing that anyone would tell stories about a "great guy" who heard voices and had his whole tribe start mutilating their penises so they could be different from the neighboring tribes.  What's even more amazing is that other guys thought this was a good idea.  They must have left the psychedelic drugs OUT of the story.
"The family that prays together...is brainwashing their children."- Albert Einstein
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#3
RE: The Abrahamic sacrifice of his son.
So..another thread to debate religion?
In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty.
- Thomas Jefferson
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#4
RE: The Abrahamic sacrifice of his son.
(March 28, 2018 at 12:17 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: The interpretation of holy books is no easy subject.

That's just what religious people tell themselves in order that only their interpretive claims are accepted as accurate.
“The man who can't visualize a horse galloping on a tomato is an idiot.”
~ André Breton
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#5
RE: The Abrahamic sacrifice of his son.
You mean to tell us that magic book can;t be trusted to say what it means or mean what it says..and that..further..."visions" from god are just as likely to be tricks by the devil, Mystic?

Gee, whatever will we do..........? I've got a suggestion. Rolleyes
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#6
RE: The Abrahamic sacrifice of his son.
So... God is a shit author then?

The Quran is extremely easy to interpret. It's an indoctrination manual. It also tries to hijack many of the Biblical stories and rewrites them as Islamic stories. This is all painfully obvious to anyone outside the "bubble".

Abraham is as real as Frodo Baggins, and has less to teach us.
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#7
RE: The Abrahamic sacrifice of his son.
Many people in the modern world have killed their kids and claimed god told them to.

Are we supposed to treat these people as prophets, too?

If so, there are a hell of a lot of prophets.

If not, how do we choose those that are?

And if none are prophets, why should we accept claims about someone who may or may not have existed?
Dying to live, living to die.
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#8
RE: The Abrahamic sacrifice of his son.
The problem with this story is that Abraham thought this ommand was normal enough that he actually planned to go through with it. It doesn't matter that Yahweh stopped him, or maybe Satan lied to him. Blood sacrifice, including Human sacrifice, is normal enough for this god to command that one of his closest followers was about to kill his son because of it. Whether it's Yahweh or Allah, this god is obsessed with death and blood, and that's not something you should accept from a supposed god of love and mercy.
Poe's Law: "Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won't mistake for the real thing."

10 Christ-like figures that predate Jesus. Link shortened to Chris ate Jesus for some reason...
http://listverse.com/2009/04/13/10-chris...ate-jesus/

Good video to watch, if you want to know how common the Jesus story really is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88GTUXvp-50

A list of biblical contradictions from the infallible word of Yahweh.
http://infidels.org/library/modern/jim_m...tions.html

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#9
RE: The Abrahamic sacrifice of his son.
(March 28, 2018 at 12:17 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: In Islam, you might not know this. But there was a mystic interpretation by some Sufis, that in fact, Abraham mixed his vision from God (it was partially from God) and couldn't distinguish in his vision/dream like state, whether or not God ordered him literally to kill him or not. He saw it that God ordered him, but he was mistaken.   Satan made him see it literally, while God wanted him to let go of his earthly attachments to his son. It was meant to be metaphorical, but, they thought God was serious.

One of the most interesting revelations happen is that Isaac which means laughter or God's laughter, was given to Sarah when she despaired, and the Angels told her it meant laughter and it made her laugh.

God didn't let the sacrifice happen, and God is not a deceiver, so the fault is on Abraham, for thinking God was literally wanting to kill his son and his son literally trusting his fathers judgement and interpretation of his vision.

What is the big lesson in this to humans?

Even when you get spiritual visions, even when you think you know, question, perhaps you misinterpreted a revelation words, and even if you think you are sure it means something, it might mean something else. 

If a great Prophet like Abraham can get things wrong and misinterpret his dream, by a suggestion from Iblis, and which God wanted really just for him to let go of attachment which is manifested in the sacrifice of the sheep, and it's a great sacrifice to let go of attachment, ready to kill even your son, true, but God wanted him to let go of attachment, not literally kill him....if he can get it wrong, we can be wrong too in how we perceive scriptures.

Re-Assessment is then always needed. 

If a great Prophet like Abraham can mislead to kill innocent life, no one is really safe, from us way below his wisdom, intelligence, and insight. We may feel we will never, but in a time of war, we may be mislead and choose the wrong side.


In all this, we must seek refuge in guidance from God. The leaders that are guided by God become a refuge of safety.

Noah also misunderstood God's words before. He thought God promised to save his family in the sense everyone understands family to mean. But his son perished.

So he misunderstood, and began to doubt, and ask God regarding that, saying indeed you are truthful in your promise, so there must be a contradiction. God than advises him saying he is not of your family for his action is other then righteous, meaning what God meant by family was something else, than says, don't ask me regarding what you have no knowledge of saying he seeks refuge from Noah doing that lest become of the ignorant.

God knew Adam and Noah and Abraham would all turn back to guidance, but even them, without God guiding them and admonishing them, would have fell into ignorance.

What is the relevance on an Atheist forum? It's as if Quran among other things and purposes of these verses is saying, don't impose ignorant interpretations on what you don't know to be from God and truly what would be meant by God if God recited the Quran, and then put these paradigms and then reject it.

The interpretation of holy books is no easy subject. There is so many lessons to learn from this. And I can go on and on from hadiths to Quran, and the misguidance of the Muslims, but we are to rely and reflect, and we definitely will conclude things wrong at a certain point.

What matters is you seek clarification, and keeping reflecting and trying to see guidance.

God didn't throw Abraham into hell because he misinterpreted in a very bad manner his dream, neither did Noah perish, but rather, God wishes to guide humans in the paradigm of Quran.

So whatever you assume of Quran, I would give it another chance.  Same with other holy books. And try to replace your assumptions with different perceptions and more charitable reasoned interpretations.

No one cares about your or anyone else’s holy books, because you have no evidence that anything within them is remotely true.
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”

Wiser words were never spoken. 
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#10
RE: The Abrahamic sacrifice of his son.
Oh, FFS



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