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The Issue of Idolatry in Abrahamic Religions
#21
RE: The Issue of Idolatry in Abrahamic Religions
(October 4, 2023 at 7:46 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: There isn't a whole, or a partial, science to crystals.  You're right that they're not idols, they're often employed as fetishes and totems...but here's the question I have-  

Why would it be bad if you -did- worship them?  So god is a jealous god.  Is he going to hurt you if you want to see other people?  As for whether or not you can grab a magic book and then start harassing passersby on a street corner...yeah, you can do that, it happens with some regularity.

The way I see it:
 
If you don’t believe in God as a cosmic person that’s fine.
 
If you don’t believe in an Original Cause or Supreme / Ultimate Reality that’s also fine.
 
If you have idols, fetishes or totems within this three dimensional reality even that doesn’t mean you are the worst possible being in this three dimensional existence.
 
But if you believe in a Higher Reality and if you misplace your faith in this higher reality, you may end up (for instance) murdering other people in the name of that “Higher Reality” and therefore I think it’s rather normal for any God that is potentially real to try to warn people on such issues Smile Smile
[Image: 7151bc275de2d3d422106a4008215efe.jpg]

#22
RE: The Issue of Idolatry in Abrahamic Religions
Trouble with that is that it told them to murder people - and not to worship other shit. You must realize that the crystal crazed folks (and pagans in general) are notoriously pacifistic right? There aren't a whole lot of murderous hippies. Beyond the contradiction of mere fact in taboo between murder and worship, the kind of god you're talking about would have to be an idiot to believe as much, as well.

These are the sorts of issues we both run into, and create ourselves, when we try to retcon a murderous ideology to our more dainty contemporary sensibilities. You are not going to able to derive or devise a credible line of argumentation for your viewpoint from within abrahamic traditions. The only murder that idolatry appears to cause is the murder of the idolators by abrahamic cultists.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
#23
RE: The Issue of Idolatry in Abrahamic Religions
(October 8, 2023 at 12:35 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: Trouble with that is that it told them to murder people - and not to worship other shit.  You must realize that the crystal crazed folks (and pagans in general) are notoriously pacifistic right?  There aren't a whole lot of murderous hippies.  Beyond the contradiction of mere fact in taboo between murder and worship, the kind of god you're talking about would have to be an idiot to believe as much, as well.

These are the sorts of issues we both run into, and create ourselves, when we try to retcon a murderous ideology to our more dainty contemporary sensibilities.  You are not going to able to derive or devise a credible line of argumentation for your viewpoint from within abrahamic traditions.  The only murder that idolatry appears to cause is the murder of the idolators by abrahamic cultists.

I still condemn those heinous attacks in Israel. And I’m going to quote Pope Francis on the events that are happening since Saturday Morning (Local time):
 
"I follow with apprehension and sorrow what is happening in Israel, I express my solidarity with the relatives of the victims, and I pray for all those who are experiencing hours of terror and anguish,"
 
"Let the attacks and weapons cease, please, because it must be understood that terrorism and war bring no solutions, but only to the death and suffering of many innocent lives. War is a defeat, every war is a defeat. Let us pray for peace in Israel and Palestine,"


[Image: 7151bc275de2d3d422106a4008215efe.jpg]

#24
RE: The Issue of Idolatry in Abrahamic Religions
As a famous us politician once said, roughly, I guess that you just aren't as angry about it as those true believers are. As I consistently suggest, islamists aren't doing it wrong, you are, to your great credit - even if you're dealing with some latent cultural islamism in your own attempt to shove it's square peg down your round hole. You appear, from the outside, to be deluding yourself a great deal on this count. There was never a time that islam was anything else my dude. Atheism isn't the best option to this problem, it's not even an option, and never could be. Atheism has nothing to say on ethics, and yours is an ethical objection. The islamic golden age (and every golden age of every great nation as we tell it) is defined as it's military apex, peak conquest. That's what it meant to be "civilized" and that's what perpetually sends you down unproductive avenues. The best way to tell how civilized people were was how efficiently they slaughtered and exploited the savages. Undeniably proof, not simply in theory but in actual practice, we've long believed, of the superiority of our tribes, and our tribes gods. Frankly, it's only when we begin to fail to successfully shit on the other guy when we start to worry that our ideology is in decline or our patron gods have abandoned us.

That's a good quote, though, every war is a defeat. OTOH, I somehow doubt that praying about it will help, if it was going to, it already would have. If the king of the catholics wants to do something about it he has much better tools at his disposal than prayer...and he knows that, just as much as I do.

I'm right there with you in the cult of the peace plant, lol..but, buddy, you probably ought to be careful who you tell that too, especially in the company of believing abrahamists. They have never responded well to that, it's not something they one day started flipping out about. The faith has always felt a certain violent way..toward idolatry, and you're still close enough to that belief to come up with absurd explanations for it. Food for thought. I went out and performed some idolatry with a patch of berries today, and not a single jew was harmed.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
#25
RE: The Issue of Idolatry in Abrahamic Religions
(October 8, 2023 at 2:45 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: That's a good quote, though, every war is a defeat.  OTOH, I somehow doubt that praying about it will help, if it was going to, it already would have.  If the king of the catholics wants to do something about it he has much better tools at his disposal than prayer...and he knows that, just as much as I do.

Aragorn: "War with Sauron has come!  Gondor calls for aid!"

Theoden: "Rohan sends well-wishes in solidarity with the city of Minas Tirith!"
#26
RE: The Issue of Idolatry in Abrahamic Religions
A much more succinct distillation of my thoughts. The contention of all of your posts on this subject, Leo, is to propose that if people believed in theism...rightly, then good things would happen. That, once upon a time, theism was believed in rightly and better things were happening. I challenge this assertion fundamentally and I think that as a sort of wandering thinker this sis something you might want to consider. That theism cannot be believed in rightly in this way. The very act of imagining gods to be personal and intervening is to create these poor outcomes. There's no rightly or wrongly about it. None of this is a bug. It's not malfunctioning.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
#27
RE: The Issue of Idolatry in Abrahamic Religions
(October 8, 2023 at 2:45 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: As a famous us politician once said, roughly, I guess that you just aren't as angry about it as those true believers are. As I consistently suggest, islamists aren't doing it wrong, you are, to your great credit - even if you're dealing with some latent cultural islamism in your own attempt to shove it's square peg down your round hole.  You appear, from the outside, to be deluding yourself a great deal on this count.  There was never a time that islam was anything else my dude.  Atheism isn't the best option to this problem, it's not even an option, and never could be.  Atheism has nothing to say on ethics, and yours is an ethical objection.  The islamic golden age (and every golden age of every great nation as we tell it) is defined as it's military apex, peak conquest.  That's what it meant to be "civilized" and that's what perpetually sends you down unproductive avenues.  The best way to tell how civilized people were was how efficiently they slaughtered and exploited the savages.  Undeniably proof, not simply in theory but in actual practice, we've long believed, of the superiority of our tribes, and our tribes gods.  Frankly, it's only when we begin to fail to successfully shit on the other guy when we start to worry that our ideology is in decline or our patron gods have abandoned us.

That's a good quote, though, every war is a defeat.  OTOH, I somehow doubt that praying about it will help, if it was going to, it already would have.  If the king of the catholics wants to do something about it he has much better tools at his disposal than prayer...and he knows that, just as much as I do.

I'm right there with you in the cult of the peace plant, lol..but, buddy, you probably ought to be careful who you tell that too, especially in the company of believing abrahamists.  They have never responded well to that, it's not something they one day started flipping out about.  The faith has always felt a certain violent way..toward idolatry, and you're still close enough to that belief to come up with absurd explanations for it.  Food for thought.  I went out and performed some idolatry with a patch of berries today, and not a single jew was harmed.

The World is not a paradise. Of course in ancient times everything was essentially based on you military power.
 
   Still, when he took Constantinople in 1453, Mehmed II went to the Church of Holy Wisdom (Where local Christian’s had gathered hoping for a divine miracle) and told them “All of you have become my subjects now. You may return to your homes without any fear”
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of...man_Empire
 


 
[Image: 7151bc275de2d3d422106a4008215efe.jpg]

#28
RE: The Issue of Idolatry in Abrahamic Religions
(October 8, 2023 at 3:13 pm)The Grand Nudger Wrote: A  much more succinct distillation of my thoughts.  The contention of all of your posts on this subject, Leo, is to propose that if people believed in theism...rightly, then good things would happen.  That, once upon a time, theism was believed in rightly and better things were happening.  I challenge this assertion fundamentally and I think that as a sort of wandering thinker this sis something you might want to consider.  That theism cannot be believed in rightly in this way.  The very act of imagining gods to be personal and intervening is to create these poor outcomes.  There's no rightly or wrongly about it.  None of this is a bug.  It's not malfunctioning.

  I never said that. To some people it’s a walk in the mountains, to some people it’s voluntary work with the homeless, to some people it’s the struggle for a political party, to others it’s art, philosophy, Theatre and other stuff like that. Everyone has his/her own way of “getting your mind right”. You know, For Bob Marley (who was some sort of saint) it was Mary Jane, so whatever is your poison, just take it (as long as it doesn’t harm you).
 

[Image: 7151bc275de2d3d422106a4008215efe.jpg]

#29
RE: The Issue of Idolatry in Abrahamic Religions
(October 7, 2023 at 2:27 pm)Leonardo17 Wrote:
(October 4, 2023 at 7:46 am)The Grand Nudger Wrote: There isn't a whole, or a partial, science to crystals.  You're right that they're not idols, they're often employed as fetishes and totems...but here's the question I have-  

Why would it be bad if you -did- worship them?  So god is a jealous god.  Is he going to hurt you if you want to see other people?  As for whether or not you can grab a magic book and then start harassing passersby on a street corner...yeah, you can do that, it happens with some regularity.

The way I see it:
 
If you don’t believe in God as a cosmic person that’s fine.
 
If you don’t believe in an Original Cause or Supreme / Ultimate Reality that’s also fine.
 
If you have idols, fetishes or totems within this three dimensional reality even that doesn’t mean you are the worst possible being in this three dimensional existence.
 
But if you believe in a Higher Reality and if you misplace your faith in this higher reality, you may end up (for instance) murdering other people in the name of that “Higher Reality” and therefore I think it’s rather normal for any God that is potentially real to try to warn people on such issues Smile Smile

I have been warned concerning the misuse of "higher reality" inclinations, by someone in real life, I believe I dwell in that "higher reality" and have even tried to go beyond it, but failed.
"Imagination, life is your creation"
#30
RE: The Issue of Idolatry in Abrahamic Religions
I also believe in not worshipping statues and idols. But i also believe God is a trinity who is only seen in visions. Isa was sinless and born of a virgin by Allahs spirit, that makes Him a Son of God.



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