Isaiah 53, 700 B.C: Historical Evidence of the Divine Omniscience.

[Nishant Xavier]

Yeah, sure, I write in a hurry and make some typos now and then. This isn't an academic paper or something, but a forum discussion. The point there was that Louis Lapides became a Christian on reading Isaiah 53, as have many before and since. Did any of you watch the OP video I linked to from Tree of Life Ministries on the Streets of Israel? Many of the Jewish people to whom the Christian is ministering frankly admit it's most likely Yeshua whom the Prophet is speaking of in Isaiah 53. "He was despised and rejected by men; a Man of Sorrows, and acquainted with grief ... yet there was no deceit in His Mouth". Here's the video again: It has some 4 MN views on You Tube and is called the Forbidden Chapter because some Rabbis forbade it in the Synagogues as it pointed to Jesus Christ. https://youtu.be/cGz9BVJ_k6s From the video description: "3,913,002 views  Sep 25, 2015  #TreeofLifeMinistries #EvangelismInIsrael #StreetEvangelism Did you know that Isaiah 53 is a FORBIDDEN CHAPTER in most synagogues? We read this powerful prophecy with Israelis on the streets. See how deeply they were moved as they came face to face with their Messiah!"

Now, let's back to the issue: Grandizer, any comments on the Rabbi I cited who understood Isaiah 53 was about the Messiah: (1) "Rabbi Shimon Ben Yochai: “The meaning of the words ‘bruised for our iniquities’ [Isaiah 53:5] is, that since the Messiah bears our iniquities, which produce the effect of his being bruised, it follows that whoso will not admit that the Messiah thus suffers for our iniquities, must endure and suffer them for them himself.“ (2) The Babylon Talmud also says this of the Messiah: “His name is ‘the leper scholar,’ as it is written, “Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God, and afflicted”. Finally, (3) a well known Jewish Prayer for Yom Kippur, a Post-Christian one at that, openly states: “Our righteous Messiah has turned away from us we have acted foolishly and there is no one to justify us. Our iniquities and the yoke of our transgressions he bears and he is pierced for our transgressions. He carries our sins on his shoulder, to find forgiveness for our iniquities. By his wounds we are healed.”

Now, let's come back to the Prophet Isaiah himself: let me use your own translation. You wrote: "The verse does not say, “He was wounded for our transgressions and crushed for our iniquities,” which could convey the vicarious suffering ascribed to Jesus. Rather, the proper translation is: “He was wounded because of our transgressions, and crushed because of our iniquities.” Ok, how does the meaning change exactly?

Whether He was crushed "for" our transgressions or "because" of our transgressions, the meaning is ultimately the same. Christ died for our sins and because of our sins. Finally, note that in Isaiah 49, the Servant and Israel are clearly distinguished as two separate entities, the Servant as a Messianic Figure, Israel as the people He came to save along with the Gentiles: "And now the Lord says he who formed me in the womb to be his servant to bring Jacob [Israel] back to him and gather Israel to himself, for I am honored in the eyes of the Lord and my God has been my strength—6 he says: “It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob [Israel] and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.”


This is the Prophecy Simeon cited in the Jewish Temple when the Child Jesus was brought to him, saying "A light to enlighten the Gentiles, And the glory of Your people Israel" (Luk 2:32). Jewish Tradition has understood these Servant Passages of the Messiah, as the Rabbis I cited show.

Finally, note that Biblical Figures are sometimes called by their ancestors, for e.g. the Messiah is sometimes called David, because He is a Son of David. For a similar reason He is sometimes called Israel, because He is a Son of Israel. Israel refers to the name of the Patriarch Jacob, whose name was changed by God to Israel. Here is one such passage: "My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees." (Ez 37:24). David in this passage stands for the Messiah, the Son of David.

Regards, 
Xavier.

[The Architect Of Fate]

A word wall that refutes nothing 

[Angrboda]

Now, let's back to the issue: Grandizer, any comments on the Rabbi I cited who understood Isaiah 53 was about the Messiah: (1) "Rabbi Shimon Ben Yochai: “The meaning of the words ‘bruised for our iniquities’ [Isaiah 53:5] is, that since the Messiah bears our iniquities, which produce the effect of his being bruised, it follows that whoso will not admit that the Messiah thus suffers for our iniquities, must endure and suffer them for them himself.“ (2) The Babylon Talmud also says this of the Messiah: “His name is ‘the leper scholar,’ as it is written, “Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God, and afflicted”. Finally, (3) a well known Jewish Prayer for Yom Kippur, a Post-Christian one at that, openly states: “Our righteous Messiah has turned away from us we have acted foolishly and there is no one to justify us. Our iniquities and the yoke of our transgressions he bears and he is pierced for our transgressions. He carries our sins on his shoulder, to find forgiveness for our iniquities. By his wounds we are healed.”

Now, let's come back to the Prophet Isaiah himself: let me use your own translation. You wrote: "The verse does not say, “He was wounded for our transgressions and crushed for our iniquities,” which could convey the vicarious suffering ascribed to Jesus. Rather, the proper translation is: “He was wounded because of our transgressions, and crushed because of our iniquities.” Ok, how does the meaning change exactly?

I give up.

[Gawdzilla Sama]

All they've listened to for so long has driven reality out of their minds. Not even sad, just pathetic.

[Bucky Ball]

Whether He was crushed "for" our transgressions or "because" of our transgressions, the meaning is ultimately the same. Christ died for our sins and because of our sins. Finally, note that in Isaiah 49, the Servant and Israel are clearly distinguished as two separate entities, the Servant as a Messianic Figure, Israel as the people He came to save along with the Gentiles: "And now the Lord says he who formed me in the womb to be his servant to bring Jacob [Israel] back to him and gather Israel to himself, for I am honored in the eyes of the Lord and my God has been my strength—6 he says: “It is too small a thing for you to be my servant to restore the tribes of Jacob [Israel] and bring back those of Israel I have kept. I will also make you a light for the Gentiles, that my salvation may reach to the ends of the earth.”


This is the Prophecy Simeon cited in the Jewish Temple when the Child Jesus was brought to him, saying "A light to enlighten the Gentiles, And the glory of Your people Israel" (Luk 2:32). Jewish Tradition has understood these Servant Passages of the Messiah, as the Rabbis I cited show.

Finally, note that Biblical Figures are sometimes called by their ancestors, for e.g. the Messiah is sometimes called David, because He is a Son of David. For a similar reason He is sometimes called Israel, because He is a Son of Israel. Israel refers to the name of the Patriarch Jacob, whose name was changed by God to Israel. Here is one such passage: "My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd. They will follow my laws and be careful to keep my decrees." (Ez 37:24). David in this passage stands for the Messiah, the Son of David. 

Regards, 
Xavier.

Bla bla bla. 
The servant IS ISRAEL, not one person.
When you actually decide to get a formal education in these matters, you will learn about the concept of "the remnant" in Isaiah.
According to the Book of Isaiah, the "remnant" (Hebrew: שְׁאָר, romanized: sh'ár) is a small group of Israelites who will survive the invasion of the Assyrian army under Tiglath-Pileser III (Isaiah 10:20–22).

Otherwise all totally and completely irrelevant. So you cannot defend your claim about the prophesy. 
So you obfuscate with other crap.  
BTW, you have no evidence (only in one gospel) that Simeon said anything, or that Jesus was taken to the temple. That would be a long trip, with a baby.
But thanks for reminding us ... the Greek word in the Simeon deal in Luke where he says "This child shall be responsible for the *rise* and fall of many in Israel, is the same Greek word used by Paul to describe the resurrection. A change in relative status, ("exalted" as Ehrman's book says) not "risen from the dead". Thanks for that. 

You are CHANGING the GOALPOSTS. 
You "believe" that a Christ dies for sins. You can't prove it, and the Jews didn't need a savior. They already had a sacrificial system. You're slapping your
present beliefs on top of a culture you know nothing about. It has a name. Presentism.  

Repeating your unsupported beliefs is worthless. You have NOT demonstrated the function of the Jewish Messiah was to save from sin. It was not. 
The QUESTION HERE is did Isaiah say anything about needing a savior, and since the Jews WERE ALREADY forgiven, and no savior was needed. He did not.
Your claim of prophesy here is totally bogus, and you have missed the entire point of Isaiah.

There is nothing in Isaiah 49, that creates a distinction between one person and the nation as a servant.
"He said to me, “You are my servant,
   Israel, in whom I will display my splendor.”

Jesus didn't die for sins. He died because he was a criminal.
The thing is, if there was a Jesus, one of the tiny kernels of truth may be the ruckus he caused in the temple.
It says he overturned the tables of the money-changers. This ritually HAD to be done as Roman money was unclean.
The absolute center of Jerusalem's economy was the temple and all the fees and money-making that went with that.
It's impossible to over-estimate that. There were fees for everything for all the Jews who came to the festivals. Fees for the priests and buying the animals. fees to lodge, fees to eat,
fees to purify oneself before going to temple. Fees and more fees. A HUGE booming tourism temple economy. Here comes this wandering preacher from Galilee who threatens all this
by messing with the temple and the priests and sacrifice system.

In the Roman provinces there was a standing order to summarily execute trouble-makers. Jesus would have been a trouble-maker.
He was arrested and summarily executed. Peasants didn't get or need a trial, and NEVER in front of Roman aristocrats.
They also didn't get buried when they died. Traditionally they were left on the cross for a few days, which was absolutely humiliating.
(and that humiliation was what was feared), then tossed into a common grave.
He was executed just like any other trouble-maker. He was a criminal. His followers of course would be embarrassed, and had to cook up a reason to justify his death.
That was "oh, he died for your sins".

[Nishant Xavier]

Here is part 2 of that video. The Great Jewish Leader: Tree of Life Ministries. https://youtu.be/vRHpthICsEM Watch how Jewish hearts praise Rabbi Yeshua, i.e. Jesus Christ, before they hear who He is. Some continue to do so, even after realizing it. Yet, others do not. One day, as St. Paul says in Romans 11, all Israel will come to Christ and be saved. This is the teaching of the Church Fathers too, and this ancient prophecy is now well on its way to being fulfilled:

---

"An impressive list of Fathers can be brought out who refer to this future conversion as a fact. Included are Tertullian, Origen, Saint Hilary, Saint Ambrose, Saint John Chrysostom, Saint Jerome, Saint Cyril of Alexandria, Saint Prosper of Aquitaine, Saint Gregory the Great, Saint Isidore, Saint Bede the Venerable, and Saint Anselm. Saint Cyril of Alexandria says this: “Towards the end of time, Our Lord Jesus Christ will effect the reconciliation of His former persecutor Israel with Himself. Everybody who knows Holy Scripture is aware that, in the course of time, this people will return to the love of Christ by the submission of faith…. Yes, one day, after the conversion of the Gentiles, Israel will be converted, and the Jews will be astonished at the Treasure they will find in Christ”(!) (Commentary on Genesis, Bk. 5).

Another thought among the Fathers, and it is based on the eleventh chapter of Romans, is the idea that the zeal of the converted Jews will be the occasion of a restoration of the apostate Gentiles, who have despised the rule of Christ the King. Father Fahey speculates that the converted Jews will be heartbroken over their former opposition to Our Lord and His Church, and this contrition will fuel their charity to convert all men."

---

From: https://catholicism.org/ad-rem-no-310.html

As I said, you just ignore all the Rabbis and Bible passages that say what you don't want to hear. Btw, the Riddle/Teaching of God Himself, in Multiple Passages in the OT, that He Himself, the Almighty is going to come down, and be pierced, and then mourned for, is reiterated by God multiple times, so that no one who really wants to hear the Truth will miss it. Think of all the great best-selling books written by man from Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's Sherlock Holmes to J.K. Rowling's Harry Potter. The authors hide in earlier pages what they later reveal in greater depth in later page. The Bible: the world's greatest best-seller and written by God across a period of 2000 years, from Genesis and Job to the Apocalypse/Revelation is like that. That's how a reasonable person can discern a God of Great Wisdom was the Ultimate Author of the Bible.

“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son." (Zech 12:10)

God reveals in an earlier page the final mystery of His Gospel. God is going to come down from Heaven, be pierced for His people's sake, then mourned for, as for an only child, a firstborn Son. This passage expresses the eternal, timeless and incontrovertible Gospel Truth: For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son to die for our sins that whosoever would believe in Him would not perish but have Eternal Life/Eternal Happiness. I will leave it at that. The Truth has been sufficiently demonstrated.

[The Grand Nudger]

Do you really want to start comparing magic book to sherlock homles and harry potter? There's one similarity between them all that just jumps right out.

[The Architect Of Fate]

And NX responds with a wall of text that in no way refutes anything Buck said 

[Bucky Ball]

“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son." (Zech 12:10)

God reveals in an earlier page the final mystery of His Gospel. God is going to come down from Heaven, be pierced for His people's sake, then mourned for, as for an only child, a firstborn Son. This passage expresses the eternal, timeless and incontrovertible Gospel Truth: For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son to die for our sins that whosoever would believe in Him would not perish but have Eternal Life/Eternal Happiness. I will leave it at that. The Truth has been sufficiently demonstrated.

Nope. You don't scare me.
I understand that "prophesy as omen reading" was forbidden, and prediction is not the function EVER of a prophet. 
That seems to escape you. When you take Bible 101 you may learn that. It's taught in week 1 of most beginner courses. 

God does nothing. Gods can't *do* anything. They exist in a "eternal" timeless environments. "Sending a son" is impossible as it places an endpoint in an eternal past and eternal future. It's meaningless. Doing anything requires time, and all we know about is spacetime. You do know I hope a "son of god" for a Jew just meant a righteous man, and there were many ... generals, politicians, priests and other popular men. "The term "son of God" is used in the Hebrew Bible as another way to refer to humans who have a special relationship with God. In Exodus, the nation of Israel is called God's firstborn son. Solomon is also called "son of God". Angels, just and pious men, and the kings of Israel are all called "sons of God."

There are no gods. "Come down from heaven" LOL Your really are still back in the ancient world. 
We all get that you have beliefs. For thousands of years little impotent believers, just as you, have stomped their little feet and demanded others accept their truth. 
You're no different. You're not special. You're a dime a dozen. I think you're trying to convince yourself.  There's not a snowball's chance in hell you make even a tiny dent on anyone here with that rubbish. Your god is a monster. He had to send his son to die to make himself fell better. You worship that bullshit ?

[no one]

And still, any response that requires thought on nishy's part, any thinking at all, is swept under the rug.

It just responds with "gawd dun didit mageekly", therefore, my argument is sound.