What (in your society) is a 'real man'?

[FrustratedFool]

Getting it from books is rare, I suspect, these days. Most likely get the gender role messages from films and TV and the net. And the various voices of their peers.

[Anomalocaris]

I am not sure that really reflects a great change from 30-50 years ago.

[FrustratedFool]

Yes. It's likely been the same, though perhaps to an increasing degree, for a generation.

[Belacqua]

Yes.  It's likely been the same, though perhaps to an increasing degree, for a generation.

You know, this got me thinking. 

American men are still very concerned about being Real Men. It's possible that the attributes of a Real Man have changed a little over time, but probably not that much, as you point out. 

But I suspect that nobody talks about the qualities of a Real Woman. As gender roles change, am I right in thinking that the qualities we admire in a woman are now more or less the same as those we admire in a man -- and that these are what we used to think of as masculine? 

Like if we're talking about getting your values from media, all the women in the cop shows these days are just as tough, violent, and hard-talking as the men. They solve their problems with violence and show their superiority by bucking authority just like all the men do.

And I know that actual living women have always had to be strong. But the qualities that we used to associate with femininity don't seem to be getting very good press lately. Delicacy, gentleness, humility, care for others, that kind of thing. These are actually good things. 

To some extent maybe effeminate men (if that term is even still meaningful) might embody these qualities more than Real Men. I don't think such things are necessarily linked to anatomy. But I sort of wish they were valued more.

[paulpablo]

Interesting. My experience of the UK is different.

I've never encountered anyone thinking of a real man in terms of family provision - that would seem almost the opposite!

I suspect generation, class, and region play a big factor here. The UK is a very diverse place!

And, of course, the media has a loud voice on these matters, so much was likely imbibed from movies and TV.

You must have heard of Jeremy Kyle and talk show hosts like that in the UK talking about being a real man and looking after your children and family.

In the uk I've only ever heard of the specific phrase "Real man" being used in the context of being a family man.

There's other similar phrases they usually provoke ideas like what youre talking about. Like in the uk someone might say someone is a typical bloke or a typical lad. That's someone who doesn't give too much of a fuck about their kids, loves football, beer, has a punch up every once and a while and so on.

[FrustratedFool]

Interesting.

Never having grown up and lived as a woman, I can't really say what messages I might have received about being a 'real woman', or whether these would be consistent.

I guess the input of women is required here.

My outside and limited perspective is that no one really places the same emphasis upon a somewhat monolithic ideal of 'woman' like they do with men. It's fine to be a feminine woman, fine to be a masculine woman, fine to be a mother, fine to be childless, and so on. Though this is likely as much curse as blessing. Although no one is left outside of 'womanhood' in the same way as some men are left out of manhood, women within are expected to be and do everything, including contradictory things - be gentle and be tough, be independent and be submissive, be a perfect mother and a perfect career professional, etc.

If I'm even remotely accurate, it may be said that men either narrowly conform or are thrown out entirely; whereas all bar the most outlier women are all granted inclusion, but the price is eternal pressure to embody an impossible ideal.

[FrustratedFool]

Interesting. My experience of the UK is different.

I've never encountered anyone thinking of a real man in terms of family provision - that would seem almost the opposite!

I suspect generation, class, and region play a big factor here. The UK is a very diverse place!

And, of course, the media has a loud voice on these matters, so much was likely imbibed from movies and TV.

You must have heard of Jeremy Kyle and talk show hosts like that in the UK talking about being a real man and looking after your children and family.

In the uk I've only ever heard of the specific phrase "Real man" being used in the context of being a family man.

There's other similar phrases they usually provoke ideas like what youre talking about. Like in the uk someone might say someone is a typical bloke or a typical lad. That's someone who doesn't give too much of a fuck about their kids, loves football, beer, has a punch up every once and a while and so on.

That makes sense. But still I found the messaging to be as I described it. To be a man was/is to be a masculine, tough, warrior I to sports and beer and sex. To fall outside of that was to be 'not a real man'.

Maybe we should add, 'be a great father' to the list of qualities of the 'real man'.

[The Magic Pudding.]

Maybe a ‘real man’ would be the single dad who works two jobs to make sure his kids are taken care of, or the divorced dad who never misses a child support payment or visitation with his kids.

Maybe a ‘real man’ is the guy who stops to help someone change a tire, when the stranded motorist isn’t a pretty 5’6” blonde with big boobs, or the bloke who mows his neighbour’s lawn for free because the neighbour is an elderly pensioner.

Or the ‘real man’ could be the one who doesn’t care about someone else’s gender, skin tone, accent, or sexual habits, as long as that someone is a good person.

A ‘real man’ doesn’t beat his kids or his wife, doesn’t abuse animals, understands that the woman who rejects him isn’t a lesbian, and doesn’t think there’s such a thing as ‘woman’s work’.

There’s a difference between ‘manliness’ and ‘machismo’.

Boru

I think you've got the makings of a country music song there.
You've obviously alienated a chunk of the demographic with:
"understands that the woman who rejects him isn’t a lesbian"
I think you should record it as it is though

[tackattack]

The definition in my social circles here in the south U.S is similar to GN's. A man is a protector and provider that is considerate, committed, and can be counted on.

[FrustratedFool]

The definition in my social circles here in the south U.S is similar to GN's. A man is a protector and provider that is considerate, committed, and can be counted on.

Can they be a real man if:
Pacifist
Cowardly
Physically weak
Gay
Has no interest at all in sports or DIY or cars
Opposes firearms
Vegan
Cross-dresses
Atheist