Is there a Moderate Form of Political Islam?

[Anomalocaris]

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[Anomalocaris]

 

   Anomalocaris:

 
- Yes: That’s what I am talking about. If we want it to not end up becoming something even less useful than our older fleet of F-16’s, we’ll have to keep investing in it and work to make it even more efficient. That’s why I am tarring my hairs out here:
 
We were a part of the F-35 program. We had pilots who were being trained in the USA + we were producing key components of that airplane. So these were all know-hows and technologies we could have adapted to or integrated into the Kaan airplane.
 
+ It will be at least a whole decade before we are able to mass produce this airplane (and it is not a piece of Junk, Countries like Ukraine and Azerbaijan are already interested). Greece is getting its 40 F-35’s now.
 
So there is this difference between really boosting our defensive capacities and this populist “gas lighting” that is actually serving one purpose only: to get more fools to vote for the 73 year old president who is already winning all elections since 2001

 

Many countries are interested in any nominal G-5 fighter program that is is going on with any of minors powers with ambition to make one, however realistic or unrealistic the ambition is, because the need to hedge against the high handed attitude of the U.S. towards participation in the F-35 program.    The F-35 program is structured to give the U.S. unprecedented leverage over its adopter countries to a degree many countries find totally unacceptable.    The exclusion of turkey from the F-35 for the nominal reason of purchase of Russian S-400 is case in point, another is the threat to withhold F-35 from gulf states in retaliation for their use of Chinese equipment in their civilian telecommunication infrastructure,     The only alternatives available to minor powers from other established aeronautical powers are fraught with political and practical problems.     Russia’s ability to deliver either Su-57 or Su-75 is as questionable as the deliverability of any of the small power G5 projects,  and the adoption of a Chinese G5 fighters like the J-20 or J-35 will set the adaptor up for a serious political confrontation with and black mailing by the U.S that countries like Ukraine would find it imprudent to do.   

So interest in the Kaan is in no way an expression of real confidence in the ability of Turkish program to deliver a truly competitive G5 fighter.   It’s just a political game to keep any potential options open in a world dominated by U.S. Russia and China rivalry and the overbearing attitude of the U.S. in forcing minor powers to explicitly chose sides using any leverage it can excert.

[Leonardo17]

- I don’t think the Attitude of the US is high-handed. Almost all NATO countries are getting (and co-producing) F-35’s (to the Exception of the Republic of Turkey of course )

- On Gulf States and other Arab states: On of the main competitor to the F-35 is the French Dassault Mirage and Rafalle plains. So this would be a very good option too. Right now we are stuck with F-16’s Egypt or Pakistan would probably beat us in a hypothetical areal confrontation

- I know that Pakistan bought some Chinese airplanes in the past, but I don’t know if the Chinese are selling J-20’s to anyone yet.

Russia is supplying some SU-35’s and later Mig’s to Iran. But right now they cannot produce next generation airplanes So Azerbaijan is getting interested in our Kaan fighter jet. See the Pakistani JF-17 Thunder is still a Pakistani + Chinese aircraft. It’s that type of technology. I am not commenting on it because I don’t know. But I guess it is probably a very nice machine as well. Kaan is still a western aircraft with western components (like its engine) that looks like the F-22 Raptor and it is being compared to the F-35 because many features are probably similar. With this aircraft having (reportedly) features that correspond more to the particular needs of our armed forces.

And this works for the famous Bayraktar attack drone as well (the Turkish drones that Ukrainians used in the early parts of 2022). The designer of these is a Turkish engineer living in the USA. You can even call it an American design because technically, that’s what it is

The world is quickly becoming very multi polar in terms of newer weaponry. India is working on HAL Tejas, Japan that the 6th generation Mitsubishi FX, Korea has the Boramae “Fighting Falcon”.

So there are many options on the market. But you know: The Turkish President has been asking for Eurofighters in the earlier part of this year in Germany. The simple truth is that, Egypt is able to get Rafales aircraft. And we were only able to get modernization kits for F-16s (+ a few more new F-16’s).


This is all theory. But in a hypothetical confrontation Greece (which is 1/8th of Turkey in terms of population size) could quickly have an upper hand on Turkey in terms of aviation thanks to its newer and better managed defense strategies.

So if there was a Brazilian citizen in this Forum, I thinks we would be able to chat for hours on the similar wrong doings of our populist leaders (I am talking about the former president Jair Bolsonaro of course)

[Thumpalumpacus]

[...] and the overbearing attitude of the U.S. in forcing minor powers to explicitly chose sides using any leverage it can excert.

.. as if we are obligated to sells its highest tech to countries which may well act in ways deleterious to American interests ...

[Anomalocaris]

[...] and the overbearing attitude of the U.S. in forcing minor powers to explicitly chose sides using any leverage it can excert.

.. as if we are obligated to sells its highest tech to countries which may well act in ways deleterious to American interests ...

No one is obligated to not be dumb, or short sighted, or to not be blind to the long term consequence of imbuing other people with a resolve to to get even for one’s own heedless exercise of short term leverage.

[Thumpalumpacus]

.. as if we are obligated to sells its highest tech to countries which may well act in ways deleterious to American interests ...

No one is obligated to not be dumb, or short sighted, or to not be blind to the long term consequence of imbuing other people with a resolve to to get even for one’s own heedless exercise of short term leverage.

If i sell you a knife, is asking you to not use it against my family fair? Or maybe if I license you the right to build my design, in that contract I may insert stipulations regarding how it's used?

The problem of selling the F-35 to a country possessing a potential adversary's SAM system (which adversary also has advisors on the ground reporting back) should be clear.

Maybe you might explain how that approach is "dumb"? And why do you think that American concern is "heedless"?

[Leonardo17]

@Leonardo17

My argument is that authoritarian / populist elements in any geography and in any form, like to intimidate people with their weapon.

But the converse is not necessarily true. Because authoritarians intimidate people via displays of weaponry doesn’t mean that anyone who does so is an authoritarian.

Boru

No one is obligated to not be dumb, or short sighted, or to not be blind to the long term consequence of imbuing other people with a resolve to to get even for one’s own heedless exercise of short term leverage.

If i sell you a knife, is asking you to not use it against my family fair? Or maybe if I license you the right to build my design, in that contract I may insert stipulations regarding how it's used?

The problem of selling the F-35 to a country possessing a potential adversary's SAM system (which adversary also has advisors on the ground reporting back) should be clear.

Maybe you might explain how that approach is "dumb"? And why do you think that American concern is "heedless"?

This is a very old issue. If my memory is correct, these S-400’s are not compatible with a country like ours (that is using almost 100% NATO compatible military equipment) and because it’s all computerized, the usage of these systems could potentially allow Russians to hack in NATO computer systems. And this is why these weapons are sitting in some military warehouse, because we are simply not allowed to use them. In fact, Greece decided to give it’s S-400’s to Ukraine.
 
   Also, I don’t know (because I’m not that interested in these issues) why the ruling government did not ask for Patriot and/or Himars systems instead. The Ukraine conflict is confirming my suspicions that Patriot system are far more effective against all types of missiles and also against drones etc…
 
   I also have to relativize my own arguments at some point. Our president has met Vlodimyr Zelensky yesterday and he is going to supply some much needed weapons (including artillery shells) to Ukraine. So he is not the devil incarnated either:
 
 https://www.yahoo.com/finance/news/zelen...27167.html
 
   What I am trying to say is that populism and especially populism based on religion is a dangerous thing and despite all of the positive achievements of this 23 years old government, it can put on a path in which nobody wants us to be. And that’s why I understand the reserves of European and north-American countries. President Erdogan is scaring them. Therefore, they decide to give Leo II thanks to Mitokratis (which he deployed on demilitarized Aegean Islands- Which is illegal) + F-35’s (Because President Erdogan has used strong language on almost everybody abroad).
 
    So me being me, I am simply concluding that that type of populism is not helping us (nor our allies)

[The Grand Nudger]

They did ask, multiple times. We didn't want to sell them our newest stuff. By the time we agreed to sell them they'd already bought the s4. The other issue is that they're expensive. Turkey still wanted them, but only if other nato countries would subsidize their purchase....and wouldn't you know it, turkey had been pissing off other nato countries (and the us) even as it was holding it's hat out begging for cash to build it's own military.

Nevertheless, turkey has had patriot systems in country from time to time. Loaners from other countries (like your nukes). In the wider balance of things, Turkey has been the recipient of incredible financial and military largesse from the us. It was probably a bad idea to go down the islamist route, if..ofc, anyone wanted to see that continue, lol.

The patriot is the most successful sam of it's kind on the market, and the s400..it turns out, is dogshit. A paper tiger, like the country that sold them. The evidence that all of the russian weapons were in this sorry state had been growing for some time..but there was the useful myth that us arms manufacturers relied on - plus the fact that russian weapons are the budget entry option for despots and dictators the world over, pushing back against that. The real hit to russia from ukraine is that they're going to international weapons conventions and no one is buying. For turkey, buyers remorse is understandable. Not only did the islamists decide to buy bargain basement garbage, it prevented them from acquiring better shit to replace other garbage.

Now....to the other thing. If religious populism is bad, then there must be something wrong with the religion. Religions are ideas about how we should organize our societies to effect the world around us. It doesn't really make sense to say that we ought to organize our societies in way x, but also that organizing our societies in way x is doodoo. That these rules x are the Good Rules, but also that following them makes The Bad Thing. Maybe, just maybe, the precepts which facillitated a 7th century warlord and his entourage doing whatever the fuck they were already going to do was never a good way to organize ones society, ones private life, or ones "spirituality".

[Thumpalumpacus]

This is a very old issue. If my memory is correct, these S-400’s are not compatible with a country like ours (that is using almost 100% NATO compatible military equipment) and because it’s all computerized, the usage of these systems could potentially allow Russians to hack in NATO computer systems. And this is why these weapons are sitting in some military warehouse, because we are simply not allowed to use them. In fact, Greece decided to give it’s S-400’s to Ukraine.

The issue from the American perspective is that in possession of both F-35s and S-400 systems, the Turks would be able to determine radar signatures and ranges. With Russian advisors present, we didn't want that information being passed to Moscow.

We weren't worried about their hacking NATO systems, we were worried about their optimizing or even upgrading the S-400 in order to increase its effectiveness against the F-35.

[Leonardo17]

The main idea here is that populist leaders are usually too smart for us normal people.
 

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For those who do not know the issue: Ordinary Turks do not have any problem with ordinary Greeks. We are neighboring nations whose cultures have been influenced by one another and we kind of like one another too. Still in strategic terms, we are rivals in terms of our military. Right wing Greeks are expansionists who have sovereignty claims on Cyprus and on almost all the islands in the Aegean Sea. We even had a military confrontation with them in 1974 over the control of the Island of Cyprus. From our point of view, we had the intervene when the British retreated because the military junta that was ruling Greece at the time was planning an ethnic cleansing of the Turks in the Island. Another main issue is that according to a treaty dating from 1923, the Aegean islands that are close to our coastline have to remain demilitarized as these are “Greek Islands in practice, but Turkish islands in terms of administration”. So it’s still their territory but they cannot deploy troops / missiles / aircrafts on these islands nor can they block our ships who are navigating through these waterways (as much as I understand it).
 

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So for the reason I explained above, Greece is our main rival in terms of its military. So the fact that Greece is getting upgrades to its 40 or so F-35’s while we were able to upgrade our old F-16’s in return for letting Finland join NATO (which was nothing short of a blackmail actually) should give us an idea of how inadequate these people are in terms of governance in general.
 
   And that works for all sorts of populism (and this example is about religious-populism / Political Islam). They so like to talk about grandiosity and power and domination and know how to appeal to our basic ego-identifications. Yet in practice Greece (a country that is 1/8th of us in terms of population) has now defense capabilities that are better than ours in many way.
 
Here is the full article:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/nato-ally-gre...25548.html