University Protests against the Israeli Incursion into Palestine

[Belacqua]

There’s some truth in what Bel is saying (apparently, the events of October 7 were reprisals for Palestinians being forced out of Sheikh Jarrah, among other things). On the other hand, well, do I really have to explain why the shit that happened on October 7 is morally indefensible? Especially with the attack on the Supernova Sukkot Festival, where Hamas decided that they weren’t going to differentiate between enemy combatants and people who just wanted to dance like pricks to trance music?

Thanks for this. 

Yes, it's possible for an act to be a response to a previous act, and also morally indefensible. This is how things escalate and then never end.

"An eye for an eye" was actually meant to limit such spirals -- when they put out your eye you can get equal revenge but then you have to stop. But we've been past that point for a long time now.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Really? I'm surprised to hear this. Do you have a source? 

Of course, "get by" could mean "simply survive," which -- I guess, maybe. But it would be a radically different country.

Israel's defense budget is about 15 billion USD. We give about $3.8b to them, though I don't know how they split that out. Even if every penny of American aid goes to the Israeli military, that's only 20+% of its defense budget. Also, much of that aid money is spent on American arms, which means that much of that is gifted weapons.

If we don't give that money, then perhaps they have less money for settlement expansions and so on which only make things worse in the region. I don't see that my tax dollars should be supporting a military that defends apartheid.

The trouble is that when America objects to Israeli policy, they still send money and weapons. 

That's kinda why -- in case you missed it -- I wrote "That's why I think we should not support them any more.'

Even during the recent attacks on Gaza, Biden is telling them to tone it down, while still sending them the weapons to keep it up.

Which support, in case you haven't noticed, I object to. It's almost like you're not reading what I write.

[Belacqua]

Really? I'm surprised to hear this. Do you have a source? 

Of course, "get by" could mean "simply survive," which -- I guess, maybe. But it would be a radically different country.

Israel's defense budget is about 15 billion USD. We give about $3.8b to them, though I don't know how they split that out. Even if every penny of American aid goes to the Israeli military, that's only 20+% of its defense budget. Also, much of that aid money is spent on American arms, which means that much of that is gifted weapons.

If we don't give that money, then perhaps they have less money for settlement expansions and so on which only make things worse in the region. I don't see that my tax dollars should be supporting a military that defends apartheid.

The trouble is that when America objects to Israeli policy, they still send money and weapons. 

That's kinda why -- in case you missed it -- I wrote "That's why I think we should not support them any more.'

Even during the recent attacks on Gaza, Biden is telling them to tone it down, while still sending them the weapons to keep it up.

Which support, in case you haven't noticed, I object to. It's almost like you're not reading what I write.

Earlier I said that Biden has the ability to stop the genocide in Gaza, if anyone does. You disagreed, and said that he doesn't; only Netanyahu does.

We agree that America gives lots and lots of support to Israel, and ought to stop. 

I believe that without America's support -- financial, military, and diplomatic -- Netanyahu could not continue what he's doing. That if Biden were to shut it all off, Netanyahu would have to stop murdering people. Israel would have to radically change its policies towards its neighbors and accept a two-state solution. Therefore Biden, in theory, has the ability to stop genocide. 

Now whether Biden could actually take such a step is another question. Politically, it would be suicide for him. But I think that if I were 81 years old, and had the ability to stop a genocide by taking morally good steps that would end my career, I would consider it.

[The Grand Nudger]

Israel can arm itself and prosecute a war even under US embargo.

[Fake Messiah]

We agree that America gives lots and lots of support to Israel, and ought to stop. 

It shouldn't stop because Israel would not have the rocket shield and thus Hamas would wipe them out.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Earlier I said that Biden has the ability to stop the genocide in Gaza, if anyone does. You disagreed, and said that he doesn't; only Netanyahu does.

We agree that America gives lots and lots of support to Israel, and ought to stop. 

I believe that without America's support -- financial, military, and diplomatic -- Netanyahu could not continue what he's doing. That if Biden were to shut it all off, Netanyahu would have to stop murdering people. Israel would have to radically change its policies towards its neighbors and accept a two-state solution. Therefore Biden, in theory, has the ability to stop genocide. 

Now whether Biden could actually take such a step is another question. Politically, it would be suicide for him. But I think that if I were 81 years old, and had the ability to stop a genocide by taking morally good steps that would end my career, I would consider it.

Don't mistake leverage for power. The world's not as simple as you'd like it to be.

[brewer]

I'm just waiting to see how this goes now that arrests are being made and finding out that it's a high percentage that are not students. Have to wait and see the level of commitment.

[Leonardo17]

Israel can arm itself and prosecute a war even under US embargo.

When dealing with a narcissist boss or partner there is a process called “disengagement”.
 
Today my government decided to stop its trade relation with Israel (We are the 6th economic partner of Israel + in the second half of the 20th century Israel was an important military and strategic partner as well – because of it being the only democracy in the sea of dictatorships in the Middle-East).
 
BrianBoru:
 
“We” means “Us”, meaning the world in general. People who believe that there has to be an end to conflicts at some point. Don’t you agree?

So here is what we do in Germany:





Here is La Sorbonne / France :





A General Comment on the Discussion:

---

 

Facing reality is good: Israel started as an invasive power in the age of colonialism. No one can deny that. It came to an ethnically diverse geography where many faiths coexisted with one-another and with the use of brutal force, established itself in that region (destabilizing the whole region by doing so). The doctrine behind this is rather a religious one. I’m an archaeologist but I am asking: -Where are the remains of King Solomon’s powerful kingdom for instance? So I am not a denier nor a believer in the existence of the earlier Jewish state at this point.

 

Anyhow. Didn’t we solve this territory issue even back in 1948? What we did is: We took that pie, split it in half. Jews took half of it, Arabs took half of it.

 

So: Yes: The Arabs never agreed on the very existence of Israel.

But Yes: Jews never stopped trying to take all of Palestine.

 

They are a bit like the Greek far right: The Greek far right has always been pushing for the extension of Greek territories into Anatolia because historically, in antiquity all of the Now-Turkish littoral was Greek. (See image bellow).





 

So all I am asking is: “How is this different from what Putin is doing in Georgia right now?”

(Currently the Georgian parliament is passing a new law that restricts press freedoms and is contributing to putting the whole country back in the orbit of the Kremlin).

---

/ You cannot make the world work like this. We are open to all propositions but conflicts need to end at some point.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Israel can arm itself and prosecute a war even under US embargo.

When dealing with a narcissist boss or partner there is a process called “disengagement”.
 
Today my government decided to stop its trade relation with Israel (We are the 6th economic partner of Israel + in the second half of the 20th century Israel was an important military and strategic partner as well – because of it being the only democracy in the sea of dictatorships in the Middle-East).
 
BrianBoru:
 
“We” means “Us”, meaning the world in general. People who believe that there has to be an end to conflicts at some point. Don’t you agree?

So here is what we do in Germany:





Here is La Sorbonne / France :





A General Comment on the Discussion:

---

 

Facing reality is good: Israel started as an invasive power in the age of colonialism. No one can deny that. It came to an ethnically diverse geography where many faiths coexisted with one-another and with the use of brutal force, established itself in that region (destabilizing the whole region by doing so). The doctrine behind this is rather a religious one. I’m an archaeologist but I am asking: -Where are the remains of King Solomon’s powerful kingdom for instance? So I am not a denier nor a believer in the existence of the earlier Jewish state at this point.

 

Anyhow. Didn’t we solve this territory issue even back in 1948? What we did is: We took that pie, split it in half. Jews took half of it, Arabs took half of it.

 

So: Yes: The Arabs never agreed on the very existence of Israel.

But Yes: Jews never stopped trying to take all of Palestine.

 

They are a bit like the Greek far right: The Greek far right has always been pushing for the extension of Greek territories into Anatolia because historically, in antiquity all of the Now-Turkish littoral was Greek. (See image bellow).





 

So all I am asking is: “How is this different from what Putin is doing in Georgia right now?”

(Currently the Georgian parliament is passing a new law that restricts press freedoms and is contributing to putting the whole country back in the orbit of the Kremlin).

---

/ You cannot make the world work like this. We are open to all propositions but conflicts need to end at some point.

No, I do not agree. If ‘the world in general’ truly wanted an end to conflicts, there would BE no conflicts. And your notion that people don’t hate anyone is the worst kind of Pollyannic wishful thinking. Solving disagreements via violence is so common that it’s not unreasonable to call it part and parcel of the human psyche.

Boru

[Silver]

Conflict also tends to be a male trait, one I have always struggled with keeping under control.