Fentanyl topic split off election thread.

[europeanatheist]

I suggest that you return to post #1 and #3 in this thread and read them again. The use of fentanyl during surgery for anesthesia is common and not tied to addiction. No physician that I know gives fentanyl for short term post op pain. And  ibuprofen in excess amounts? I'd love to hear the details but suspect he has none.

Who the fuck cares about RFK?

You do not read much scientific literature, do you? (I love the british question tags and the british accent)

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Link removed per 30/30 rule.

Cochrane Database Syst Rev
. 2009 Jul 8;2009(3):CD001548. doi: 10.1002/14651858.CD001548.pub2
Single dose oral ibuprofen for acute postoperative pain in adults

Authors' conclusions

The very substantial amount of high quality evidence demonstrates that ibuprofen is an effective analgesic in treating postoperative pain. NNTs for 200 mg and 400 mg ibuprofen did not change significantly from the previous review even when a substantial amount of new information was added. New information is provided on remedication.

[europeanatheist]

I can say I am a brain surgeon or a rocket scientist...doesn't make it so.

And my dad was a veterinarian....doesn't make me one any more than the OP having doctors in the family makes them a medical expert.

Never said I am a physician, I just said that I have quite some knowledge in the fild since I work in an adjacent field (industrial biotech), that'all.
I am a curious persone with scientific mind so I read a lot of articles also coming from the field of medicine, and beside my family that lives far away the regular group I hang with is made by 2 other couples, one is of physicians and the other ones of Apothekers, and we all like our jobs so when we meet instead of talking of TV series we talk about work and interesting cases, they can either be old people coming in pharmacy with Viagra prescription or patients with strange symptoms

[europeanatheist]

I don't understand the negative view people seem to have of europeanatheist. It's clear he's no fan of Trump or of RFK. 

It's true that despite RFK's kookiness, he might be correct about some things. Nothing he says is original with him; there are others, with varying degrees of expertise, who agree with them. To work out exactly what is correct we'd have to take the time to examine each case. 

It's true that the US allows all kinds of food additives that are banned in Europe and in Japan. I'm no expert on food additives, but it makes sense to ask why other countries have made these rules. 

These are all scientific questions. I don't think we want corporate lobbyists making the rules, and I don't think we want to judge who is correct simply according to which politicians we hate. It's not anti-American to say you'd like the government to do a better job with people's health. And you don't have to support Trump or RFK to see that as a worthy goal.

Thank you, you get perfectly my point, other here seems the typical people saying "Hitler brushed his teeth 3 times a day, let's stop brushing our teeth to virtue signaling we are anti nazi"

[brewer]

I suggest that you return to post #1 and #3 in this thread and read them again. The use of fentanyl during surgery for anesthesia is common and not tied to addiction. No physician that I know gives fentanyl for short term post op pain. And  ibuprofen in excess amounts? I'd love to hear the details but suspect he has none.

Who the fuck cares about RFK?

You do not read much scientific literature, do you? (I love the british question tags and the british accent)

Administrator Notice
Link removed per 30/30 rule.

Cochrane Database Syst Rev
. 2009 Jul 8;2009(3):CD001548. doi: 10.1002/14651858.CD001548.pub2
Single dose oral ibuprofen for acute postoperative pain in adults

Authors' conclusions

The very substantial amount of high quality evidence demonstrates that ibuprofen is an effective analgesic in treating postoperative pain. NNTs for 200 mg and 400 mg ibuprofen did not change significantly from the previous review even when a substantial amount of new information was added. New information is provided on remedication.

I read medical literature daily, 5 journal articles this morning. I doubt your claims of fentanyl use for post op pain and therefore doubt the entire story.

Really, an article from 2009, only compared ibuprofen against placebo and not other medications (of course it's going to control pain better than placebo), review of medical literature only (back as far as the 1980's). Did you read the conflict of interest?

Yep, you're on top of things going on in the medical community.

[europeanatheist]

I read medical literature daily, 5 journal articles this morning. I doubt your claims of fentanyl use for post op pain and therefore doubt the entire story.

Really, an article from 2009, only compared ibuprofen against placebo and not other medications (of course it's going to control pain better than placebo), review of medical literature only (back as far as the 1980's). Did you read the conflict of interest?

Yep, you're on top of things going on in the medical community.

Good for you, so you can like this other 

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All links and other content removed.  Read the rules and follow them. 

[The Grand Nudger]

Depends. You'll find that doctors here give all the same advice. Healthcare quality and outcomes are strongly related to patient incomes...but drugs are heavily employed at both end of those scales. Same with the quality of our food and additives, ofc. The perfect storm for us, especially as regards obesity and stranger shit like drinking silver and bleach till you turn blue. Our permissive regulations in both areas combined with the massive amount of product we can and or need to make or move. We prioritize productivity over health or quality. So now we're overfed but malnourished. Overmedicated and unwell. Do we give a guy a pill to get him back into the mines or do we pay him six weeks leave? Can we spend the amount of time in the gym it would actually take to have the bodies of our dreams without being fired from the jobs of our nightmares?

[arewethereyet]

I suggest that you return to post #1 and #3 in this thread and read them again. The use of fentanyl during surgery for anesthesia is common and not tied to addiction. No physician that I know gives fentanyl for short term post op pain. And  ibuprofen in excess amounts? I'd love to hear the details but suspect he has none.

Who the fuck cares about RFK?

You do not read much scientific literature, do you? (I love the british question tags and the british accent)

Administrator Notice
Link removed per 30/30 rule.

Cochrane Database Syst Rev
. 2009 Jul 8;2009(3):CD001548. doi: 10.1002/14651858.CD001548.pub2
Single dose oral ibuprofen for acute postoperative pain in adults

Authors' conclusions

The very substantial amount of high quality evidence demonstrates that ibuprofen is an effective analgesic in treating postoperative pain. NNTs for 200 mg and 400 mg ibuprofen did not change significantly from the previous review even when a substantial amount of new information was added. New information is provided on remedication.

Copy/Paste from outside sources is also against the rules.  You should read them and follow them.

[brewer]

I read medical literature daily, 5 journal articles this morning. I doubt your claims of fentanyl use for post op pain and therefore doubt the entire story.

Really, an article from 2009, only compared ibuprofen against placebo and not other medications (of course it's going to control pain better than placebo), review of medical literature only (back as far as the 1980's). Did you read the conflict of interest?

Yep, you're on top of things going on in the medical community.

Good for you, so you can like this other 

Administrator Notice
Removed links.

In the first link I have no clue which article you wanted me to look at. In the second link it primarily compared ibuprofen to placebo or acetaminophen for analgesia and antipyretic effects. In a few of the studies they reported a decreased use of opiates/opioids, not a direct comparison. 

I think you're fear of addiction is valid but appears to be somewhat dramatic. There are many other factors that lead to opiate/opioid addiction with regard to surgery, one of the  most common is opiate/opioid use prior to surgical intervention.

And yes, the US culture/patients/doctors have been indoctrinated to prescribe (over prescribe), not just with narcotics but across the range of aliments/treatments. Part of that falls on the pharmaceutical industry/lobbyists in the US.
Since the US opiate/opioid crisis prescribing restrictions and reporting regulations have been enhanced for health care providers, wholesalers and pharmacies. You might want to look them up. Any chronic addiction or deaths are often due to patient abuse and/or availability on the black market/street. Side note, did you know that Europe introduced fentanyl to the world?

I'm not convinced that fears of addiction out way allowing additional unnecessary suffering. If you want to make value judgements regarding Europe and US health care, fine by me but I'll not necessarily validate it. And I don't find offering medical advice/positions (when not in health care) on the internet very professional.

Getting into a discussion over the use of GLP-1 and GIP agonists is a different topic with different considerations.

I'm done with this conversation.

[The Grand Nudger]

I guess it's worth pointing out that while we can (and i have) certainly been critical of the us on this subject..where we are now is often better than where we were before a given regime. So, for example in food....we are overfed but malnourished..but before this productive regime we were underfed and malnourished, also..fwiw..poisoned. The same is true of pain relief. We were unwell and addicted then, too, and also in significant pain. We had fewer pills and drank a whole lot more.

[europeanatheist]

I am not scared of addictions, I think every druig, hard or soft, should be legal, I just want that you decide to become a junkie out of your free will, not because you crave a drug used for post surgery pain, that is all.
I would vote a party that:
Legalize drugs
Legalize euthanasia even on healthy underage if they ask it (of course after trying to convince them that is wrong)
Legalize whatever weapon for sale, up to a tank, as long that it is forbidden to leave your home with a weapon (so the gun nuts can only have fun at home and not playing the sheriff in town)
Legalize prostitution
Legalize marriage with 3 or more, even with animals
Legalize prostitution
Legalize abortion until the baby is out but still with umbelical chord attached
etc etc
All of the above things are disgusting to me but as long as you do not harm anybody, even if it is not my cup of tea I have nothing against