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I sometimes find it a shame...
#21
RE: I sometimes find it a shame...
(November 13, 2024 at 2:09 pm)TheWhiteMarten Wrote:
(November 12, 2024 at 10:27 am)Sheldon Wrote: I feel the same way about churches and cathedrals, I mean I am always awe struck at the engineering, the energy, resources and ingenuity committed to and executed in building them, but imagine what those could be have been dedicated to.

Such as what?
Anything that society is in practical want or need of, obviously. You're a theist, surely imagination is not something you lack?
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#22
RE: I sometimes find it a shame...
He will agree with you in every particular when it comes to the rcc or the fundy movement, depending on which side of that line he falls. The criticism comes calling from inside the house and yet the faithful performatively disagree with outsiders who say what they already know to be true. All of them agree that much has been wasted, and terribly so, on this stuff. They just balk when you point out their stuff is part of that stuff.

Meanwhile, they all continue to beg steal and borrow from the very thing they reject, the source of anything that any of them has or even refers to.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#23
RE: I sometimes find it a shame...
(November 13, 2024 at 2:09 pm)TheWhiteMarten Wrote: Such as what?

Helping the poor as your Jesus preached, for starters.

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#24
RE: I sometimes find it a shame...
When this was built, the population of the town was 1,000.  It was built to hold 1,000 people.  Of course, there were surrounding farms not counted in the population.  This is where the tithing went.  It's a beautiful structure and the art inside is amazing.  But...it was built so that that if the pope was ever in the area he would go to that church.  Well, he was in the area a few times but didn't bother to stop in.  Still the church asks for more money. It costs a lot to maintain this, the rectory, and the convent.  

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#25
RE: I sometimes find it a shame...
(November 13, 2024 at 4:08 pm)Sheldon Wrote:
(November 13, 2024 at 2:09 pm)TheWhiteMarten Wrote: Such as what?
Anything that society is in practical want or need of, obviously. You're a theist, surely imagination is not something you lack?

I guess we could look at the evidence here, and ask: in recent years, what has our society decided it is in want or need of? What gets built? And what are the results of these decisions? 

If we make a list of large-scale projects, maybe we get: sports stadiums, airports, shopping malls. Anything else? There are large buildings for purely functional purposes, like factories, but these are not intended for people to pass through and enjoy. 

So what kind of stadiums, malls, and airports do we get? What criteria are emphasized when people are designing them? Largely economics, efficiency, things like that. An airport might look good on paper, and might have some features that make it a cool experience (like a high ceiling or something like that) but the people who experience the airport largely have an experience of concrete drop-off zones, of waiting in line on hard floors, of buying over-priced day-old sandwiches, of waiting in crowded areas with unpleasant TVs blasting. In other words, the moment-by-moment aesthetic experience of the person who is there is about the last thing on the designer's mind. 

Contrast this to a cathedral in Europe or a temple in Japan, and the difference becomes clear. (And I understand that there are also religious buildings that are also built for efficiency and economics -- megachurches, etc. There will always be exceptions and poor choices.) 

So you can go to Ishiyama Temple southeast of Kyoto. (I choose this one because it is not spoiled by the influx of tourists that the modern age has inflicted on some other temples.) You go in the gate and every inch you can see has been cultivated for beauty for the last 1000 years. Every direction you look is a wonderful aesthetic experience. For the people who run this place, the beauty is a part of the meaning. It is not incidental decoration -- the medium is the message. There is no point where you are blasted with loudspeakers or expected to line up in front of concrete curbs. The point that the whole meaning of the place is a million miles away from our modern values of efficiency, profit, and economics, means that they can do what no sports stadium, airport, or shopping mall could get away with. 

If I were Elon Musk I would stop shooting big heavy things into the air and devote my life to making a part of the world as beautiful as this temple. But because I have those values, I'll never make enough money to do that.
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#26
RE: I sometimes find it a shame...
^
Quote:(And I understand that there are also religious buildings that are also built for efficiency and economics)

ALL religious buildings are built for economic reasons. Even the Ishiyama Temple (which seems to be giving you a trouser tent) charges admission.
Boru
‘I can’t be having with this.’ - Esmeralda Weatherwax
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#27
RE: I sometimes find it a shame...
Sports stadiums frequently take aesthetics into account. Just as a church serves a dual role, housing worshippers / creating an experience, so do stadiums.
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#28
RE: I sometimes find it a shame...
(November 13, 2024 at 9:02 pm)Angrboda Wrote: Sports stadiums frequently take aesthetics into account.  Just as a church serves a dual role, housing worshippers / creating an experience, so do stadiums.

Like the Flavian Amphitheater. Aesthetics in sports venues has been going on for a minute.

Boru
‘I can’t be having with this.’ - Esmeralda Weatherwax
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#29
RE: I sometimes find it a shame...
(November 13, 2024 at 3:03 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote:
(November 13, 2024 at 2:09 pm)TheWhiteMarten Wrote: Such as what?

Speaking for myself, I’d like to see a 100 000 square foot Gothic cathedral-type monument dedicated to the thousands of men and women who devoted their lives to combating religious idiocy. It could have, for example, a Robert Ingersoll memorial non-chapel.

Boru

Then do what they did; gather enough resources together and build one.
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#30
RE: I sometimes find it a shame...
(November 13, 2024 at 4:08 pm)Sheldon Wrote:
(November 13, 2024 at 2:09 pm)TheWhiteMarten Wrote: Such as what?
Anything that society is in practical want or need of, obviously. You're a theist, surely imagination is not something you lack?

The church was generally the one who provided that as well; the cathedrals you are referring to were largely built by local guilds and communities coming together and wanting to build a shrine to the uniting thread that binded them, to glorify God's kingdom on Earth.

There are plenty of scientific reasons as to why this is good for a society as well, so I'm just not sure what would have been necessarily more practical.
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