Maybe controversial - Religion IS bad, but.....

[Ahriman]

Secular charity is a necessary evil, I think. You can't deny they do a much better job of supplying citizens with what they need than the comparatively small fry religious organizations.

[The Grand Nudger]

Obviously a person can, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Not only is secular aid orders of magnitude greater and demonstrably propping up religious aid with massive financial subsidies, it's more efficient dollar to dollar. There's this cheesy thing ffa kids learn to recite, a poem by em tiffany, probably the best line "less need for charity and more of it when needed".

I mean, it's either that or billionaires start paying their fucking taxes and billion dollar businesses a living wage.

[Sandman]

Anyway, the topic of these posts was "I kinda wish atheists did charity better than them" not, "I wish secularists did charity better."

More when I can.

-and when they do you'll decide that's not the "better" you meant.  Boring.

No. I don't think I would be a lot happier if I saw Atheists doing better, but I would be pleased. I  know I don't want to go back to the damn food bank I talked about.

I've been wanting to make it clear, what was on my mind when I posted this thread for awhile:

---

I understand the average atheist gives about as much as a religious - tho I wasn't thinking about that when I posted.

I never saw many dedicated atheist charities:
When I look, Atheists represent about %5 of the population, but much less than %5 of organized charities self-identify as Atheist. I thought maybe these few charities
are just larger, bringing in more money.

I noticed a limited scope:
All major self-identified Atheist organizations I've seen focus just on helping atheists, much needed, but they do little outside of that. Maybe they promote seperation
of church and state, or another social cause. Even churches take care of their own - while doing other charities.

Other Atheist charities:
As for charities that identify as Atheist and focus on causes other than Atheism, I didn't know of any. So I searched, and found less than ten. Found a website that hooks up
non-religious volunteers with charities. I think it linked to two that specifically identified as Atheist. The other links were all secular, and I believe I've already
said why I don't see secular necessarily=atheist.  Some might say I just didn't find all the Atheist charities. Such hypothetical 'unfound' charities could do a better job of
connecting with the public - so I could find them - because I looked.

And the rest:
That leaves local Atheist clubs. It's hard to criticize the charity they do. They do good work, but don't have nearly the resources to do what larger charities can.

I thought there were more Humanist charities, but:
Humanism always 'felt' different than Atheism to me, but I should include organizations that identify as humanist. Many promote Atheism, but like Atheist
organizations, they represent far less than %5 of total charities. I understand the vast majority of their work is to support humanism, not so much other causes.
They are also needed, but again, even churches support their own - while doing other charity work.

Many charities did not stand out as Atheist to me:
Not to repeat stuff I've said, but beyond this it gets blurry. Plenty of secular charities have atheists or humanists values, but do not promote atheism or humanism.
More seculars simply focus on a cause - like the Pediatric Cancer Foundation- with no interest in identifying with or promoting anything other than their cause.

As I posted before, the U.S. is about %70 religious. The Civil Rights Act prohibits religious discrimination in hiring, so these 'blurry' charities could have maybe
%70 of their managers holding religious beliefs. So, it becomes hard for me to see the 'blurry' charities as organized and run by Atheists (or religious).
I know people claim these charities for Atheism. If you do then Atheist charity is great, but the connection still isn't as clear for me.
I guess it would be better if I could see the charities as Atheist.

So Fuck.

Overall, Atheists do great, much needed work. Work I appreciate.

This isn't a criticism of Atheist charity, because I just don't know how they could do it better.  I simply wished they did do it better.
In my mind, I didn't claim Secular charities for Atheism, and self-identified Atheist charities weren't well represented enough on their own for me.
Then, remembering that damn food bank, prompted this thread.

---

I had said religion is very bad, and I wanted to say a little more on that:

When I was young, people really messed me up in the name of religion, in a very bad way... It left me with a deep anger towards religion that I'm still working out.
The anger poisons the mind, and I have have done so much thinking - even obsessively - just to try to see things clearly. So much crap pushed in my head.
I have low tolerance for any screwy idea anybody tries give me now, any politics. I'm always ready to argue it, always trying to get it right in my head.

I've had trouble holding jobs and many other issues.

It's been years of hard - obsessive - thinking through the crap, finding the right words to express what I didn't understand, and I'm still working on it.
I have yet to meet someone who has the deep, abiding, pain and anger that christians royally screwed me with. The Atheists I have met or seen, have all been
well adjusted, as it should be.

I have heard a few people talk with what seems like anger for the church, denigrate it, but it doesn't even resonate with me because it's nothing like my very
personal anger. I can't even try to talk the church down like others do. I can only find words for this personal anger and I don't think there's much room for it here.
This anger left me alienated even from my family. I have this sense that it is not possible to fit in with anyone, anyways. So screw the church.

[Thumpalumpacus]

A charity which broadcasts its faith makes me wonder where its priorities are, helping the indigent or plumping their religion. I don't find it surprising that a nonreligious charity wouldn't advertise its irreligiosity. After all, that might cut down donations from believers who would rather steer their money to charities of their own stripe.

Sorry your religious upbringing fucked you up so bad. Mine didn't, so I don't have a burning anger about it.

[The Grand Nudger]

@Sandman

What we appear to be discussing is not atheists or atheism doing charity better, but atheism doing charity a thematically christian way. Secular charity isn't going to satisfy on that count, neither in principle or practice - the latter being the reason that christian charities have begun to operate the way secular charities do.

Causes™ turn into conditions for aid. This is needless, inefficient, and cruel - possibly the worst combination of traits to be saddled with if the underlying aim is to reduce hunger. Causes™...additionally...have a tendency to draw bad actors. From their pov, it's a group of marks telling you exactly how they prefer to be lied to. This happens across the secular/religious divide but in theism's case a god provides cover and prevents accountability. From the mismanagement of funds to the rape of children. From something as intimate as a private cult all the way up to religious institution.

Ultimately, thinking about gods in the way that theists do necessarily invites these errors - as personal gods err in personal ways. These errors...if we let them....propagate through everything we do in their name - because we've elevated them to a position above or beyond scrutiny. They are the right and proper state of affairs, more or less the fabric of reality.

[Sandman]

A charity which broadcasts its faith makes me wonder where its priorities are, helping the indigent or plumping their religion. I don't find it surprising that a nonreligious charity wouldn't advertise its irreligiosity. After all, that might cut down donations from believers who would rather steer their money to charities of their own stripe.

Sorry your religious upbringing fucked you up so bad. Mine didn't, so I don't have a burning anger about it.

What you say is true. As for believers who donate to secular charities, yes, it's not about religion until someone makes it..

I block out much of my time as a catholic, but I remember I did believe in separation of church and state, and other secular beliefs,
so I'm not surprised believers support secular charities out there.

As for my upbringing. Thank you for the the response. I'm glad you don't have any issues. I don't wish my issues on anyone.

- Not sure you would believe how bad it got, but I'm getting help now.

I want to say my parents thought they had it right and that I was the one who needed to be 'fixed'. So they took me to two psychologists when I was young.

I actually thought the psychologists might help me, and I was desperate for help. If anything, they made it worse. I lost all trust in the professionals.

However, a year and a half ago, circumstances forced me to get help. The help is great now, but no miracle cure.

Enough said on that. Part of me wants to talk a lot about all the crap, but I know I should avoid doing any of that if I can.



Rather than make two posts I'll include in this:

@[b]The Grand Nudger[/b]

You won me over on that point. I think, yeah, secular charities do a better job on accountability.

[The Grand Nudger]

Secular charities and programs are more accountable, have greater reach, and provide orders of magnitude more hunger reduction even as those same programs and charities are subsidizing their religious counterparts.

The catholic church, in particular, is a pig at the trough of government handouts. The RCC received somewhere between 1.4b and 3.5b in taxpayer funded ppp loans. Catholic Charities US, the largest charitable organization run by the church, gets 65% of it's funding on a given year from state and federal government. The USCCB recently spent 134m on refugee and migrant programs, with federal grants covering 129m. Tax exempt the whole way, too. Then, on top of that, poor rubes in the pews keep giving them money.

What do we and the catholics get for this massive outlay? Just the church firing people and saying it can't afford to make the magic crackers for this or that diocese anymore, because their kids are gay seducers and the us government is a marxist plot to eliminate them...... It's one hell of a line they're trying to straddle between the existential need for more central american immigration and the practical necessity of chumming up to the concentration camp guards. Between the progressive demographics and funders, both individually and institutionally, that it needs to keep on keeping on, and the Traditional Values™ it feels compelled to spout off as a matter of political leverage....and whatever the fuck they did to you and any number of other people....ofc....

If you wished atheists did better than that? We could do nothing and succeed, because the rcc bar is lower than a snakes belly button.

[GrandizerII]

For what its worth, kinda wish Atheists did charity better than them.

Who said they don't?