US Strikes on Iran (Operation Epic Fury)

[Ivan Denisovich]

It might be. But if being ruled by monsters prevents country from being sovereign then shouldn't israel count too? Or US with trump in charge for that matter? As far as I am concerned there is no way to view Leo comments in positive light but merely idiotic and ignorant in best case scenario and as truly vile in worst case scenario.

I don't disagree. If Leo's standard for sovereignty is a particular level of monstrosity, then a lot of sovereign countries aren't sovereign.

Boru

After re-reading this thread I don't think that he have any coherent standard for things like "sovereignty", "martyrdom" or "rationality". But incoherence is the least of the problems I have with his posts.

[Deesse23]

So if you know a lot about 20th century history, you should be fascinated by the communist-block. Yes they are a relic of the past. But No, they were not really evil. At least not like the IRI.

Most of the population had no choice to participate in the first place, as i already explained. When they tried to gain their freedoms back--> Eastern Germany 1953, Hungary 1956, Czechia 1968.

Huge systems of spying on and oppression of the population were entertained. Have you ever heard of "Gulag", "Lubjanka" or "Bautzen"? Do the names Jeschow, Berija or Mielke ring a bell in your mostly empty skull?  If thats not "evil" then please tell me what is?

In Lithuania alone (a country with 2.5mio people)
20.000 freedom fighters were killed
20.000 were put into gulags
120.000 people were deported additionally between 1941 and 1952
28.000-60.000 of those died due to the harsh conditions
Between 1940 and 1953 ca. 300.000 people from the Baltics alone were deported.

Please stop that bullshit with "socialist experiment". A minority of criminals experimented with the lives of millions. The elites lived in segregated communities in luxury while their subjects lacked the most basic means for a decent living. Thats.fucking.evil.

The Eastern German SED elite lived in Wandlitz, near Berlin. It was surrounded by a 2m wall with barbed wire, and guarded. They had a cinema, restauranr, swimming pools and special shops where they could buy food and luxury from the West (all those tings were a wet dream to normal people), while the population queued up for hours just to get some basic food.

Or do you have a health insurance? They all had free health insurance in the USSR.

Sure, they also supported women to work, had enough kindergarden spots for everyone, and according to official sources there was no criminality whatsoever. Iirc i read somewhere that Stalin personally helped a poor, old woman across the street. Whats your fucking point?
They also had no food in their stores and had to wait for a car up to 20 years. Electricity and heating in major cities failed regularly, particularly in winter. Have you ever even thought about the quality of this health insurance? 

You are an ignorant fool and better stfu, before you embarrass yourself even more, if that is even possible. If you need any evidence: You also made it clear that you have to clue what "Katyn" is and why it happened. You had no idea that the USSR invaded Poland only weeks after Germany did. You probably dont even know about the Winter war with Finland.

[Leonardo17]

Fake Messiah:
 
“If a Iran’s power plants get destroyed, hospitals and emergency services would be strained since backup generators only last so long. Water systems would fail as pumps and treatment facilities shut down.
Food supplies would also be disrupted as refrigeration and transportation break down.
But maybe China steps in and saves them with thousands of solar panels, like they are doing in Cuba:”
 
- Doing this is a war crime. In fact all the economic sanction are punishing the Iranian people. Not the Basij or the revolutionary guides. But if he does it in a way that hurts the elite and not the people (by eradicating their only source of income) I think there may be some dramatic results.
 
Fake Messiah:
 
“Then perhaps you should demonstrate it instead of filling your posts with bullshit?” (etc)
 
And
 
“I can. Means of production did not belong to workers and thus SU wasn't socialist. It's that simple.”
 
Again that basic knowledge. The Soviet Union means the Union of the Soviets. Soviets are Workers Councils. These are the basic political structures of the country. The same system is also at place in China.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_(council)
 
Here is a quote from Wikipedia:
 
“The Chinese constitution describes the country's system of government as a people's democratic dictatorship.[31] The CCP has also used other terms to officially describe China's system of government including "socialist consultative democracy", and whole-process people's democracy.[32]”
 
- None of these are pure party-states like fascist of Italy. There are systems at work within this basically authoritarian system that allows them to be governed with some degree of rationality. China is the N-1 economic power in this world (after the US of course).
 
But you are not getting the nuances here. So maybe we should change the subject
 
“Ever heard of concept of "welfare state"? Do some reading sonny before you embarrass yourself further.”
 
- Yes. There is that in Canada and Greenland. B. Obama and Joe Biden wanted there to be that in the US too. But MAGA people didn’t want it and this is 2026. East-German people had this welfare state for instance.
 
/You know: for most people the way they talk to others is also the way they talk to themselves. SO do not worry about self-embarrassment. I’m saying this for everything. If you are new at something you can just go for it. Rome wasn’t built within a week you know
 
“What abortion right have to do with socialism?
Also according to your twisted logic SU stopped being socialist in 1936 as On 27 June 1936, the Central Executive Committee of the Soviet Union made abortion illegal again.”
 
- But it was legalized again in 1955. That’s when black people could not walk into whites-only restaurants in the US
 
“This makes them socialist? It erases SU crimes? ““
 
- You are missing the nuances. I would not want to live in the USSR. I would not want to be invaded or subjected genocide by the USSR. But that era was a different era. Napoleon was not a saint either but people remember him for his genius more than the destruction he brought to all of Europe. I’m talking about concepts here. Who will remember the IRI for anything in 50 / 100 years? Jihadi terrorism and Shaheed drones?
 
(nuances)
 
“It was founded on utopian thinking which is hardly rational and on ideology that resembled religion and then transformed into it when marxism became marxism-leninism.”
 
+ 1
 
And many people who know this stuff are critical of many ideas Karl Marx expressed in the first place. Personally I didn’t even read (parts) of the Capital. + Karl Marx even said that he wasn’t a Marxist.
 
/ As an ordinary man, I will still try to pick some of the more positive aspects of the Marxist approach and try to see if they can have value in our days. I believe that some of these values may still have value in future societies.
 
“If the world would have reacted (by force of arms) then there would be a world war by definition.
It's good to be armchair general and politician but both France and GB had to deal with populace that had enough of war and obviously neither of these countries could see a future.”
 
- What if the same is true for Iran. That’s what Netanyahu is saying. And I don’t think its empty talk. The Mossad is very present in Iran. So if if they say that there is some risks there my tendency is to believe them.
 
But yes: The opposite argument might be that Netanyahu is playing this card to hold on more to political power. Well, at the end of the day we civilians simply don’t know. Yes. It’s possible. I might be completely wrong in the end
 
“You're drunk or on drugs? I recommend you Wikipedia because you lack even most basic knowledge and it can help to remedy it. What CNN have to do with this?”
 
- I mean the same is happening all over again in Ukraine and this time Europe (and also the US) decided to act early.
 
“So these unnamed (and probably existing only in your fertile imagination) European leaders are doing something to stop trump or netanyahu? That's cool if true.”
 
- You seem to be enthusiastic about this. But you don’t need tanks to stop Bibi and Donald. You need to go to the polls and until then, you need to write to your congressmen or congresswomen. I think this is based on the area of your residence in the US. So find out who is your congressmen and write them a short letter in which you clearly express your feelings about Israel (barbaric?) actions in Palestine and Beirut (and also in Iran if you like)
 
“Also consult some books before writing a post. Above looks like worst kind of ai slop that explains nothing and tells nothing. You're aware of the fact that OKH wanted something different than Manstein and war might have looked different if Hitler didn't learn of his plan and supported it?”
 
No. You may share more info on this if you like.
 
“Sure, sure. There was no Battle of Britain and allies just twiddled their thumbs until perfectly rational USSR which also sent first woman in space saved them. Consoling
 
Cut one the bullshit and do some research sonny. Historical consensus is that about 6 millions of Jews were killed in Shoah. It's already enormous crime so I have no idea why you seek to inflate the number further. I can only hope that it is ignorance and not malice speaking.”
 
- I don’t know if the allies would have defeated Hitler if half of is army wasn’t being decimated in the East-Front. The victory in WWII belong to the Allies and to the Soviets. Both sides sacrificed a lot (the Russians sacrificed more actually).
 
- No sorry. I just made a mistake.
 
“What exactly is so intriguing there?”
 
- In my mind the two are absolute opposites. Stalin making deal with Hitler. But you don’t seem to see it this way in this forum.
 
I live in the old world. Even today, far-right and far-left young boys are seriously harming one another in places like France. Being a “Facho” is still very different form being a “Camarade”. I mean this is serious stuff I’m talking about
“So where is your condemnation of israel genocide of Palestinians? You constantly fellating this rogue state and write some bullshit about how it is in danger while simultaneously ignoring that it is danger it is bringing on itself - by staring war, by oppression and by genocide.”
 
- All I say is that the situation on the ground might look different in some cases. I’m saying that 1) There is a madness element in Israel. But you didn’t agree that 2) There is a madness element that is related to many of the other factions that are present in the region. So much that if the Ottoman rule or colonialism had lasted a little longer it would obviously be better for all of these ethnical and cultural elements in the region.
 
“I want them sanctioned and to UN peacekeeping forces be stationed in Tel Aviv as country that routinely pises on UN resolutions can't be trusted.”
 
- I agree
 
“Perhaps they shouldn't illegally settle there then.”
 
- Israel’s 1949 Borders are legal. Maybe they should just stay within these borders.
 
“- Houtis + Hamas + Hezbolah are all Iranian proxies who are trained and financed by Iran.
 
Your words aren't evidence.”
 
- Well watch some TV. These are Shiite Political Islamist groups whose leadership are directly appointed by Iran. (check the internet if you like)
 
“It should be restrained sonny. Whether by sanction or force I care not as in my view genocidal regimes can't be allowed to continue unpunished.”
 
- I agree
 
“Without war crimes and genocide. Shouldn't be a concept that is hard to grasp.”
- Many Jews + Israelis would agree with that too. You know: There are completely MAGA / redneck Israelis too. Their messianic views are as problematic as political Islamist views. That’s how I see it.
 
“I'm yet to see you condemn it. Also you deny Iran sovereignty because it is "ruled by monsters" but you don't appear to treat israel the same despite the fact that it committed genocide. I think that you lack even a shred of moral courage to truly condemn whatever israel is doing. Actions of this rogue state are abhorrent, criminal and plain idiotic but you don't seem to care. Same with SU. You don't condemn it for genocide just speak some nonsense about it's alleged rationality. It looks like your moral compass is malfunctioning, assuming you have one at all.”
 
- You may have a point here. I think I will have to agree.
 
Yet you are making a mistake here too: the IRI is a very complicated regime. Iran was a F..ed up place (in political terms) even before the IRI revolution. They are very far from being a more innocent element in the region like Palestine, Lebanon or even Syria and Iraq.
 
As I said they brought this on themselves. Meaning: From their perspective. Nobody is bombing Us (Turkey). Nobody is Bombing Tunisia or Egypt. SO maybe something is wrong with Iran too?


 
 
“israel is using white phosphorus in Lebanon. That's criminal not merely not very nice.
Anything else to say in regard to you not being israel apologist?”
 
- No I think I will condemn both of Israel’s action in Palestine and in Lebanon. But I must remind you that there has to be a secular authority in both these countries who are capable of banning Iranian proxies in their territory. Right now Hamas (still) owns Palestine and Hezbollah is ver very active in Lebanon.
 
See that our main problem here: If we were able to solve this there would be no war with Iran. But let’s leave this for another time.
 
“So your solution to the issue is to beat the victim while letting aggressor scot free? Neither israel nor USA have right to decide sovereign state government. You seem curiously resistant to the concept that Iran should be afforded the same right that other countries enjoy while simultaneously being blind to israel and US breaking the international law.”
 
- No. I think İsrael is undermining existing sevular authorities in the region. Then it makes room for Islamist extremists. Then it justifies its genocidal wars with the existence of extremist elements in the region. And that’s because Israel itself is ruled by religious extremists. That’s my theory on that.
 
“What type of situation? Allowing rogue state that already committed genocide to continue without punishment might indeed incite it to commit another one so best way to prevent it would be to use force against Israel”
 
- No I mean hatred, then more hatred, then dehumanization, then more dehumanization. It’s like gang violence in bad neighborhoods in America. “They are the animals, they are uncivilized, we against them, pride, hatred, pride, hatred” This simply cannot work. It never worked once in history and that’s all I am saying
 
BriansoddigBoru:
 
- This is about the reality on the ground. Cuba doesn’t even have civilian nuclear power or a ballistic missile program. Look at the (illegal) oil embargo D. Trump is imposing on them. (I mean why is he forbidding even Mexico to sell them some oil for their cars and their energy grid?).
Sometimes you need to look at all the aspects when you are facing a given problem.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

@Leonardo17

BriansoddigBoru:
 
- This is about the reality on the ground. Cuba doesn’t even have civilian nuclear power or a ballistic missile program. Look at the (illegal) oil embargo D. Trump is imposing on them. (I mean why is he forbidding even Mexico to sell them some oil for their cars and their energy grid?).
Sometimes you need to look at all the aspects when you are facing a given problem.

That is so far from my point I don’t even begin to know how to respond.

Boru

[Ivan Denisovich]

Again that basic knowledge. The Soviet Union means the Union of the Soviets. Soviets are Workers Councils.

I know what the  name means. But if you think that name equals practice then you're either spectacularly naive or completely ignorant. Or perhaps you think that Democratic People's Republic of Korea is really democratic or republic?

It was party that ruled in SU and it weren't workers who owned means of production. It certainly isn't some secret knowledge available to chosen few.

ETA: Wikipedia ain't perfect but it didn't take me even a minute to find it: The economy of the Soviet Union was based on state ownership of the means of production, collective farming, and industrial manufacturing.

But you are not getting the nuances here. So maybe we should change the subject

Nuances of your ignorance? Soviet Union called itself socialist. So what? If I will call myself president of Mexico will I become one? I'll grant you that system in SU was different than one in the west but it was state in control, not workers. Anarchists for example considered SU to be state capitalist and I find it far more convincing than SU being socialist when workers weren't in control of means of production.
 
 

Yes. There is that in Canada and Greenland. B. Obama and Joe Biden wanted there to be that in the US too. But MAGA people didn’t want it and this is 2026. East-German people had this welfare state for instance.

Obama bailing out banksters wanted to build welfare state? You have some bridges to sell? As for maga check this article - https://jacobin.com/2025/07/cwcp-jacobin...des-report Seems that working class is far more receptive to progressive economic policy than you think.
 

You know: for most people the way they talk to others is also the way they talk to themselves. SO do not worry about self-embarrassment. I’m saying this for everything. If you are new at something you can just go for it. Rome wasn’t built within a week you know

I have nothing to be embarrassed about, in the context of this exchange at least. You however plainly lack the basic knowledge and buy into most absurd explanations that you found dog knows where. Read some books about SU and perhaps enlightenment will come, or at least you will stop making fool of yourself.

But it was legalized again in 1955. That’s when black people could not walk into whites-only restaurants in the US

What one have to do with other? Also how abortion relates to socialism? You're capable of making some approximation of genuine answer or you will continue to pretend (or not) to be an idiot?
 

You are missing the nuances. I would not want to live in the USSR. I would not want to be invaded or subjected genocide by the USSR. But that era was a different era. Napoleon was not a saint either but people remember him for his genius more than the destruction he brought to all of Europe. I’m talking about concepts here. Who will remember the IRI for anything in 50 / 100 years? Jihadi terrorism and Shaheed drones?

No. It is you who deem irrelevant shit to be of importance while simultaneously not giving a shit about abhorrent crimes of Soviet regime. There is no need to speak about whatever crap you name nuances when you're blind not only to big picture but to humongous mural too.

Era was different but crimes weren't any less abhorrent and no matter what random bullshit you will pull tiny achievements will not overshadow monstrous crimes. Soviet state was experiment, that much you got right. It was criminal, bloody, irrational and ultimately failed experiment that belongs in dustbin of history.

 

What if the same is true for Iran. That’s what Netanyahu is saying. And I don’t think its empty talk. The Mossad is very present in Iran. So if if they say that there is some risks there my tendency is to believe them.

netanyahu is a head of genocidal regime with wested interest in holding on to power. What he says about country he attacked is irrelevant.
 

But yes: The opposite argument might be that Netanyahu is playing this card to hold on more to political power. Well, at the end of the day we civilians simply don’t know. Yes. It’s possible. I might be completely wrong in the end

You're wrong in everything you say so in all probability you're wrong in this too.

- You seem to be enthusiastic about this. But you don’t need tanks to stop Bibi and Donald. You need to go to the polls and until then, you need to write to your congressmen or congresswomen. I think this is based on the area of your residence in the US. So find out who is your congressmen and write them a short letter in which you clearly express your feelings about Israel (barbaric?) actions in Palestine and Beirut (and also in Iran if you like)

What makes you think I live in US?

There is no question at all about israel actions, genocide, among them being barbaric. Yet you have trouble with recognizing it. It behooves me to ask if you're racist against Palestinians or unable to recognize that israel can and does wrong.

I don’t know if the allies would have defeated Hitler if half of is army wasn’t being decimated in the East-Front. The victory in WWII belong to the Allies and to the Soviets. Both sides sacrificed a lot (the Russians sacrificed more actually).

Both sides sacrificed a lot but one helped Hitler to start the war (not that appeasement was something to be proud off). I would have said that Soviets reaped what they had sown but it was ordinary people who paid for leadership miscalculation so I will say that people of SU got fucked both by foreign and domestic dictator.
 

In my mind the two are absolute opposites. Stalin making deal with Hitler. But you don’t seem to see it this way in this forum.

They weren't absolute opposites. Both had genocide on their conscience but Soviet crimes were directed more inwards than outwards and of course Stalin helped to defeat Nazis (whom he also helped to start the war but that part often gets forgotten). Soviet ideology was also far more intellectual than fascism void of reason but I suppose it didn't make much difference to the victims and it did get dumbed down as the years passed. Of course there were far more differences but most important thing that is absolute power and imperialist ambitions they had in common.

They were on different sides of political spectra (though Stalin unlike Lenin wasn't internationalist) but that's far from being absolute opposites. Stalin would have to be kindly Uncle Joe for him to be opposite of Hitler and as history can attest he wasn't.
 

All I say is that the situation on the ground might look different in some cases. I’m saying that 1) There is a madness element in Israel. But you didn’t agree that 2) There is a madness element that is related to many of the other factions that are present in the region. So much that if the Ottoman rule or colonialism had lasted a little longer it would obviously be better for all of these ethnical and cultural elements in the region.

 
I still don't see the condemnation of genocide, just some wishy washy bullshit. It does not say anything remotely good about your morals.

As for the situation on the ground - you have better sources than UN Independent International Commission of Inquiry on the Occupied Palestinian Territory? I'll quote them:

The Commission has been investigating the events on and since 7 October 2023 for the last two years, and concluded that Israeli authorities and Israeli security forces committed four of the five genocidal acts defined by the 1948 Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, namely killing, causing serious bodily or mental harm, deliberately inflicting conditions of life calculated to bring about the destruction of the Palestinians in whole or in part, and imposing measures intended to prevent births.

Explicit statements by Israeli civilian and military authorities and the pattern of conduct of the Israeli security forces indicate that the genocidal acts were committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, Palestinians in the Gaza Strip as a group.

“The Commission finds that Israel is responsible for the commission of genocide in Gaza,” said Navi Pillay, Chair of the Commission. “It is clear that there is an intent to destroy the Palestinians in Gaza through acts that meet the criteria set forth in the Genocide Convention.”

You have any more bullshit about how situation might look like? You hate Palestinians so much that you can't stomach condemning israel barbarity? Or you lack even the tiniest shred of moral courage that is needed to condemn genocidal regime on small, internet forum?

Well watch some TV. These are Shiite Political Islamist groups whose leadership are directly appointed by Iran. (check the internet if you like)

It is you who must provide evidence for your claims. I won't be doing research for you, no matter how basic.
 

I agree

Wow. Tiniest bit of shriveled conscience makes an appearance.
 

Many Jews + Israelis would agree with that too. You know: There are completely MAGA / redneck Israelis too. Their messianic views are as problematic as political Islamist views. That’s how I see it.

They would agree? That's cool. Call me when it will be them in charge.
 

You may have a point here. I think I will have to agree.

So can I expect clear and unambiguous condemnation of genocide any time soon?
 

Yet you are making a mistake here too: the IRI is a very complicated regime. Iran was a F..ed up place (in political terms) even before the IRI revolution. They are very far from being a more innocent element in the region like Palestine, Lebanon or even Syria and Iraq.
 
As I said they brought this on themselves. Meaning: From their perspective. Nobody is bombing Us (Turkey). Nobody is Bombing Tunisia or Egypt. SO maybe something is wrong with Iran too?

Main wrong (in the context of this exchange) with Iran is it relative closeness to israel (as far as ballistic rockets judge distance). It is israel that is aggressor. Abhorrence of Tehran regime does not give israel licence to attack it. Otherwise Tel Aviv would be a ruin long time ago as it would be a fair game for any country with morals.

It didn't take you long to return to your habit of defending israel crimes I see.

No I think I will condemn both of Israel’s action in Palestine and in Lebanon. But I must remind you that there has to be a secular authority in both these countries who are capable of banning Iranian proxies in their territory. Right now Hamas (still) owns Palestine and Hezbollah is ver very active in Lebanon.

You think you will condemn israel actions or you will actually do this? That's quite the difference.

It's israel that should stop starting wars and committing war crimes first. It is plain idiocy to expect that opponents to murderous regime will disappear before regime will stop being murderous. To be fair they wouldn't disappear instantly after israel (hypothetical) about face turn but it is only reaping what it had sown since Nakba.
 

No. I think İsrael is undermining existing sevular authorities in the region. Then it makes room for Islamist extremists. Then it justifies its genocidal wars with the existence of extremist elements in the region. And that’s because Israel itself is ruled by religious extremists. That’s my theory on that.

So you're capable of basic reasoning. Congratulations. If you would only do it more often.

[Thumpalumpacus]

[...] you're either spectacularly naive or completely ignorant.

[Ivan Denisovich]

[...] you're either spectacularly naive or completely ignorant.

That's certainly possible. Mostly however I suspect trolling as mix of idiocy, strawmans and somewhat right (if incredibly basic) takes would be hard to achieve otherwise.

[Leonardo17]

Ivan Denisovich:
 
“I know what the  name means. But if you think that name equals practice then you're either spectacularly naive or completely ignorant. Or perhaps you think that Democratic People's Republic of Korea is really democratic or republic?”
 
That comes from the communist manifesto. According to the Manifesto “communism is an ideal of true democracy” and it says that there cannot be a true democracy as long as there are social classes exploiting one another. (Ex: supporters of populist parties writing checks to support the campaign of these politicians leaving ordinary to believe that the most right-wing parties will serve their interests better than anyone else)
 
“It was party that ruled in SU and it weren't workers who owned means of production. It certainly isn't some secret knowledge available to chosen few.
ETA: Wikipedia ain't perfect but it didn't take me even a minute to find it: The economy of the Soviet Union was based on state ownership of the means of production, collective farming, and industrial manufacturing.”
 
- I’ll simply agree with you on that. But still there were no people living in tents while so many people owned mutli-billion dollar fortunes. Only the Nomenclatura had their way of doing things (to some degree). But there was nothing like Daytona Beach in the 1980’s
 
Their system of housing was very interesting. Many people resided in the same place with little to no privacy in these “communal” housings. I like to see the whole thing as perhaps our first attempt about socialism. Athens in the 5th century BC was our first attempt at creating a democratic society and it didn’t work in our first attempt either. 2000 years later people like Thomas Jefferson studied this society and gathered what they knew about the Roman Republic to try to elaborate the modern American political system. (its in “The Political Wirittings of Thomas Jefferson”).
 
“There is no question at all about israel actions, genocide, among them being barbaric. Yet you have trouble with recognizing it. It behooves me to ask if you're racist against Palestinians or unable to recognize that israel can and does wrong.”
 
- Philosophically speaking, even the settlement of Israelis by the British government was invasion pure and simple. Nakbah means disaster. The Jews just came there and took the land (They actually already took all of Palestine but it seems like I’m the only one noticing). And they did this 2000 years after the Roman Emperor Titus banished the Jews from their land and renamed the province of “Judea” as “Palestine”.
 
So all that I am saying is “I don’t know”. Or if I have to know, the Turks lived in central Asia 2000 years ago. So should I buy myself a horse and go back there?
 
/ I’m only seeking a form of logic within something that is inherently absurd.
 
So Yes they are Jews, Yes, Let them have a place that is their own. But these Palestinians are human beings too. Did you know they they jump over the wall separating them from Israel, work there in illegal ways and get shot while trying to do just that. Just to earn a few Shekels in Israel? Who has the right to humiliate people in this way right?
 
And that’s how Political Islamist recruit their people too. Iran does everything it is doing, Because of… Israel?
 
/ So how is this an adult way of thinking?
 
Yes I agree with most of the stuff you say. But you are still too empathetic toward Iran (as you reminded me that I have gradually become toward Israel).
 
“Both sides sacrificed a lot but one helped Hitler to start the war (not that appeasement was something to be proud off). I would have said that Soviets reaped what they had sown but it was ordinary people who paid for leadership miscalculation so I will say that people of SU got fucked both by foreign and domestic dictator.”
 
- I’m not an expert. You may be right about this too.
 
“They weren't absolute opposites. Both had genocide on their conscience but Soviet crimes were directed more inwards than outwards and of course Stalin helped to defeat Nazis (whom he also helped to start the war but that part often gets forgotten). Soviet ideology was also far more intellectual than fascism void of reason but I suppose it didn't make much difference to the victims and it did get dumbed down as the years passed. Of course there were far more differences but most important thing that is absolute power and imperialist ambitions they had in common.
 
They were on different sides of political spectra (though Stalin unlike Lenin wasn't internationalist) but that's far from being absolute opposites. Stalin would have to be kindly Uncle Joe for him to be opposite of Hitler and as history can attest he wasn't.”
 
- These are the very unfortunate hard truths of the subject. It took me years to understand this fully. But there used to be a time were Internet was at its infancy and knowledge would not circulate so quickly throughout the world. Back in the 60’s and 70’s young people like us (I don’t really feel that old) would just die for figures like Lenin or Stalin. Even Che Guevara is said to be a great admirer of Stalin. Stalin was “The Man of Steel” who defeated the Nazis.
 
Of course there are myths, and there are realities. But many people believed in these ideals of more justice, more equality, a more peaceful society, a world without classes, without borders…. So I cannot dismiss all of it as “empty talk”. Some people believed in these things and just like democracy, as long as people believe in these things, these are very real things actually. (I think everyone knew what this “Socialism” was at the end of the 80’s and that’s why it all came down so quickly)
 
“I still don't see the condemnation of genocide, just some wishy washy bullshit. It does not say anything remotely good about your morals.”
 
- No sir you are right on this: I condemn the Israeli Genocide in Palestine, All of its settlements outside its 1949 Borders and it’s attacks on the state of Lebanon.
 
So here you go
 
“You have any more bullshit about how situation might look like? You hate Palestinians so much that you can't stomach condemning israel barbarity? Or you lack even the tiniest shred of moral courage that is needed to condemn genocidal regime on small, internet forum?”
 
Don’t misread my messages. All I am saying is that we need intelligent people on both sides. I’m still critical of Arabs because Hamas / Hezbollah etc. are not “freedom fighters” I believe you guys are very wrong on that. We talked a lot about socialism. But Yasser Arafat (for instance) what a true figure of armed resistance against Israel. But I do not approve of his terrorist acts either. I believe in the need for armed resistance in some cases but never on acts of terrorism (that’s how I see things).
 
So we need logical elements within Palestinian society. A secular state with armed forces of its own. In Lebanon, the army is actually weaker than Hezbolah. So the Israelis are saying “If you don’t do the job, we will do the job”. So how is this fair to the Lebanese (and the UN soldiers are sitting there and watching the whole thing).
 
You know: No one has even a plan for this region. Trump’s “Riviera” plan is actually the only plan that anyone has even put on the table (I mean in this century). So how is this supposed to work?
 
Let’s do some Hamas:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas
 
“Initially, Hamas was discreetly supported by Israel, as a counter-balance to the secular Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) to prevent the creation of an independent Palestinian state”
 
(This is very important)
 
And here is what everyone calls the Axis of Resistance (IRI Proxies in all of the middle-east that aims to end the Jewish State completely):
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_of_Resistance
 
- The issue is mentioned in all TV debates. Don’t you watch the news etc?
 
“They would agree? That's cool. Call me when it will be them in charge.”
 
- When Netanyahu is gone (together with his ultra-right government members) but if there is a war with Iran, there won’t be new elections in Israel. And that’s a big issue too


 
 
“Main wrong (in the context of this exchange) with Iran is it relative closeness to israel (as far as ballistic rockets judge distance). It is israel that is aggressor. Abhorrence of Tehran regime does not give israel licence to attack it. Otherwise Tel Aviv would be a ruin long time ago as it would be a fair game for any country with morals.
It didn't take you long to return to your habit of defending israel crimes I see.”
 
- You don’t know about Political Islam. For them Dar-al-Harb is wherever you are. If you are not a believer in their perfect and unmatched interpretation of Islam, then you are in Dar-al-Harb. Meaning they get to heaven for killing, raping, murdering you etc. And this is true.
 
If the IRI had nuclear missiles they would have already used it. Because they have their own version of messeanizm too.
 
The real reason why they murder their own people is because they see them as “agents of Israel” etc. etc.
 
You know I am a believer person. So I see what they are doing better than you do. These are twisted people with a twisted and dangerous ideology. To be completely open: The Koran mentions such people as “Those who mistreat their own ego / their own being” (That’s Arabic of “enemies of all that is good in this world”)
 
“It's israel that should stop starting wars and committing war crimes first. It is plain idiocy to expect that opponents to murderous regime will disappear before regime will stop being murderous. To be fair they wouldn't disappear instantly after israel (hypothetical) about face turn but it is only reaping what it had sown since Nakba.”
 
- Yes, But the Abraham Accords will need to be put in place too. Hopefully together with the new Iranian government too.
 
/ As an atheist you should be able to answer this too: Look at the distance between these two countries. Why on earth are they fighting each other?
 
Thumpalumpagus:
 
- I don’t know if we can solve this without some level of positive thinking

[Thumpalumpacus]

Thumpalumpagus:
 
- I don’t know if we can solve this without some level of positive thinking

Solve what?

[Ivan Denisovich]

That comes from the communist manifesto. According to the Manifesto “communism is an ideal of true democracy” and it says that there cannot be a true democracy as long as there are social classes exploiting one another. (Ex: supporters of populist parties writing checks to support the campaign of these politicians leaving ordinary to believe that the most right-wing parties will serve their interests better than anyone else)

You do realize that one have nothing to do with other? No matter what was written in communist manifesto SU wasn't socialist.
 

I’ll simply agree with you on that. But still there were no people living in tents while so many people owned mutli-billion dollar fortunes. Only the Nomenclatura had their way of doing things (to some degree). But there was nothing like Daytona Beach in the 1980’s

There were only people dying in GULags or those dying of starvation in Holodomor or earlier man made famine during Lenin years. Or those killed in Great Terror or during numerous other purges. It sure was better.
 

I’m only seeking a form of logic within something that is inherently absurd.

You're just looking for every opportunity to absolve israel of blame.
 

So Yes they are Jews, Yes, Let them have a place that is their own. But these Palestinians are human beings too. Did you know they they jump over the wall separating them from Israel, work there in illegal ways and get shot while trying to do just that. Just to earn a few Shekels in Israel? Who has the right to humiliate people in this way right?

Country you defend so ardently gave itself that "right". That's what happen when murderous regimes aren't stopped.
 

Yes I agree with most of the stuff you say. But you are still too empathetic toward Iran (as you reminded me that I have gradually become toward Israel).

Iran is victim of israel aggression no matter how unpalatable it's regime. I don't like Iran but you have hate boner toward it for some reason.

 

These are the very unfortunate hard truths of the subject. It took me years to understand this fully. But there used to be a time were Internet was at its infancy and knowledge would not circulate so quickly throughout the world. Back in the 60’s and 70’s young people like us (I don’t really feel that old) would just die for figures like Lenin or Stalin. Even Che Guevara is said to be a great admirer of Stalin. Stalin was “The Man of Steel” who defeated the Nazis.

We aren't in  60's or 70's. Knowledge of Stalin and Hitler crimes is freely available.

Of course there are myths, and there are realities. But many people believed in these ideals of more justice, more equality, a more peaceful society, a world without classes, without borders…. So I cannot dismiss all of it as “empty talk”. Some people believed in these things and just like democracy, as long as people believe in these things, these are very real things actually. (I think everyone knew what this “Socialism” was at the end of the 80’s and that’s why it all came down so quickly)

It wouldn't be the first time when many people believed in lies. Especially when they lived elsewhere not in "paradise" they supposedly dreamt off.
 

- No sir you are right on this: I condemn the Israeli Genocide in Palestine, All of its settlements outside its 1949 Borders and it’s attacks on the state of Lebanon.
 
So here you go

Wow. It only took you however many posts to show some basic decency.

Don’t misread my messages. All I am saying is that we need intelligent people on both sides. I’m still critical of Arabs because Hamas / Hezbollah etc. are not “freedom fighters” I believe you guys are very wrong on that. We talked a lot about socialism. But Yasser Arafat (for instance) what a true figure of armed resistance against Israel. But I do not approve of his terrorist acts either. I believe in the need for armed resistance in some cases but never on acts of terrorism (that’s how I see things).

Your "message" is one of absolving israel of blame so I reject it. I never wrote about Hezbollah if I recall correctly but Hamas dudes are freedom fighters fighting against genocidal regime. They might use unpalatable tactics but partisans fighting with nazis also weren't lily white in their deeds.

Also "your terrorists are our freedom fighters". I simply happen to understand that violence and oppression will result in violent resistance and I blame Hamas not a tit as israel have monstrous crimes on what passes for it's conscience. It's absurdity to expect that oppressed answer will be measured when they suffer daily.
 

So we need logical elements within Palestinian society. A secular state with armed forces of its own. In Lebanon, the army is actually weaker than Hezbolah. So the Israelis are saying “If you don’t do the job, we will do the job”. So how is this fair to the Lebanese (and the UN soldiers are sitting there and watching the whole thing).

So we need israel to be stopped. They aren't world police, nor they have licence to kill.
 

Let’s do some Hamas:

I know that Hamas was supported by israel.

 

The issue is mentioned in all TV debates. Don’t you watch the news etc?

I don't watch TV at all.
 

When Netanyahu is gone (together with his ultra-right government members) but if there is a war with Iran, there won’t be new elections in Israel. And that’s a big issue too

I already said that netanyahu have vested interests in waging war.
 
 

You don’t know about Political Islam. For them Dar-al-Harb is wherever you are. If you are not a believer in their perfect and unmatched interpretation of Islam, then you are in Dar-al-Harb. Meaning they get to heaven for killing, raping, murdering you etc. And this is true.
 
If the IRI had nuclear missiles they would have already used it. Because they have their own version of messeanizm too.
 
The real reason why they murder their own people is because they see them as “agents of Israel” etc. etc.

I don't know about this alleged "political islam". What I do know is that israel is guilty of genocide while Iran wasn't credibly (or at all to the best of my knowledge) accused of it and that israel started war so it's criminal in chief can postpone trial for corruption (if I recall news correctly).
 

You know I am a believer person. So I see what they are doing better than you do. These are twisted people with a twisted and dangerous ideology. To be completely open: The Koran mentions such people as “Those who mistreat their own ego / their own being” (That’s Arabic of “enemies of all that is good in this world”)

No. You ascribe whatever evils you can to Iran while saying that SU wasn't really evil. You make up imagined scenarios with Iran as a bad guy (Iran wouldn't have backed off in Cuba missile crisis). You're obsessed with it. Fact however is that no matter how bad Iran is it is still miles better than israel as it is israel that is guilty of genocide not Iran.