US Strikes on Iran (Operation Epic Fury)

[Leonardo17]

@Leonardo17

So no matter what ideology you believe in, can you simply withdraw from the region just like you withdrew from Afghanistan exactly 5 years ago now?

To which ‘you’ are you referring?

Boru

- Sorry. You were Canadian right?
 
/ I mean everyone. What I am saying is that since our engines started running on fuel, this region of the world has been the focal point of all major imperialist ventures. Ex: The founder of the Pahlavi dynasty in Iran was originally an army general who by making a military coup, wanted to establish a republic. The Brits talked to him and convinced him that the Iranian people were not ready for democracy.
 
So Britain + France and later the USSR + USA did not leave the people of this region alone. So what happens if you do that right now? (Personally, I really don’t know )
 
Also:
 

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There were many elements in the Ottoman statehood that was inherited from a culture of statehood in the region that goes back to Hittite and other Bronze Age cultures. When they conquered a country Hittites integrated all populations and even adopted their gods as their own (making them “a People with 1000 Gods”). Akkadian was the official language. Nessite was the language of the palace. And outside the capital everyone was free to have their own language and dialect.
 
This was the “smarter” way to do things at some point in history. But it became increasingly difficult with the rise of nationalism in the 19th century. Some Sultans even experimented with some sort of pan-Islamic philosophy. But the truth was that once a given tipping point was reached, there wasn’t a way to maintain that type of statehood anymore.
 

---

 
- All of this is to say that things like ethnic cleansing will not work in this geography. There is simply too many different types of people who have never had any choice but to live with one another.
 
That’s one point. The other point is that the same is true for religion. So both type of extremism is completely undesirable and very likely to create more new issues rather than solve the older ones

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

@Leonardo17


To which ‘you’ are you referring?

Boru

- Sorry. You were Canadian right?
 
/ I mean everyone. What I am saying is that since our engines started running on fuel, this region of the world has been the focal point of all major imperialist ventures. Ex: The founder of the Pahlavi dynasty in Iran was originally an army general who by making a military coup, wanted to establish a republic. The Brits talked to him and convinced him that the Iranian people were not ready for democracy.
 
So Britain + France and later the USSR + USA did not leave the people of this region alone. So what happens if you do that right now? (Personally, I really don’t know )
 
Also:
 

---

 
There were many elements in the Ottoman statehood that was inherited from a culture of statehood in the region that goes back to Hittite and other Bronze Age cultures. When they conquered a country Hittites integrated all populations and even adopted their gods as their own (making them “a People with 1000 Gods”). Akkadian was the official language. Nessite was the language of the palace. And outside the capital everyone was free to have their own language and dialect.
 
This was the “smarter” way to do things at some point in history. But it became increasingly difficult with the rise of nationalism in the 19th century. Some Sultans even experimented with some sort of pan-Islamic philosophy. But the truth was that once a given tipping point was reached, there wasn’t a way to maintain that type of statehood anymore.
 

---

 
- All of this is to say that things like ethnic cleansing will not work in this geography. There is simply too many different types of people who have never had any choice but to live with one another.
 
That’s one point. The other point is that the same is true for religion. So both type of extremism is completely undesirable and very likely to create more new issues rather than solve the older ones

(Bold mine)

Not even close. A few other points:

-ALL engines run on fuel and always have done.

-If by ‘you’, you meant ‘everyone’, that’s just silly. Not everyone is involved in Western Asia and not everyone left Afghanistan 5 years ago. You were clearly talking about the Americans and should have said so. 

-If every country involved in the Middle East and Western Asia were to leave that region alone, the best outcome would be a collapse of the world economy (the worst outcome doesn’t bear thinking about).

-I really didn’t need a lecture about the roots of the Ottoman Empire and I reject your analysis.

-If you think ethnic cleansing can’t happen because a particular geographic area is culturally diverse, I refer you to the Balkans, Nazi Germany, and Rwanda.

Boru

[The Grand Nudger]

- The blockade of Iranian ports is a good idea. At this point it’s the only thing the US can do and has to do. You can’t convice China not to buy Iranian or Russian oil. So this is the only solution. But all the rest is just blah blah blah. (What’s an economic D-Day? At some point we are going to need an English – Trump English dictionary. I’m really no longer following at this point   )

Iran had been under severe economic sanctions from the US for the better part of 50 years.  If we're to believe that they are today a threat that warrants our military attention they got that way while sanctioned.  A pretty good explanation for why economic pressure isn't going to suddenly start working now.
 

- I don’t think it is. But I am not sure that the whole situation is being handled correctly. This is very confusing. Just the way they started the campaign. And then the issue is forgotten. And then he wants to change the regime once again. He Agrees Netanyahu disagrees. Netanyahu Agrees he disagrees.

The epstein files is how it got started.  

Again: Why are some Americans voting for this guy?

Part of it is the authoritarian floor, the other is white supremacy.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

US Troops Seeking Conscientious Objector Status Spikes

A growing number of U.S. service members are seeking formal discharge as conscientious objectors, with two organizations that assist troops through the process reporting the sharpest spike they've seen in decades.

Mike Prysner, who runs a hotline for conscientious objectors at the Center on Conscience and War (CCW), told MSNow that applications have increased sixfold since the start of Operation Epic Fury against Iran in late February — a rate he called higher than at any point in the past 25 years.

In a typical year, CCW works with around 50 conscientious objectors, but it has already taken on roughly 140 applicants since the Iran war began. Prysner said many of today's applicants differ from historical patterns, in which objectors were typically junior enlisted troops.

Instead, many current clients have served more than a decade, span all enlisted and officer ranks up to major, and in some cases attended military service academies before commissioning.

Many objectors allege that they have been ordered to take actions that violate international humanitarian law, such as striking civilian infrastructure in violation of the Geneva Conventions.

"I realized there's no way that you could interpret the international laws as saying that you're allowed to strike civilian bridges, but in reality," said one service member, "if the president wants to blow up bridges, the lawyers will find a way to say that it is okay to do it, and nobody anywhere up or down the chain of command ever stops and says no."

They said they were told the targets were "dual-use" — serving both military and civilian purposes — an explanation they found insufficient and led them to question their purpose in the military.

Boru

[Leonardo17]

BrianSoddingBoru:
 

“-ALL engines run on fuel and always have done.
 
-If by ‘you’, you meant ‘everyone’, that’s just silly. Not everyone is involved in Western Asia and not everyone left Afghanistan 5 years ago. You were clearly talking about the Americans and should have said so.
 
-If every country involved in the Middle East and Western Asia were to leave that region alone, the best outcome would be a collapse of the world economy (the worst outcome doesn’t bear thinking about).
 
-I really didn’t need a lecture about the roots of the Ottoman Empire and I reject your analysis.
 
-If you think ethnic cleansing can’t happen because a particular geographic area is culturally diverse, I refer you to the Balkans, Nazi Germany, and Rwanda.
 
Boru”

 
- That’s what I am saying. Someone has to be in the Middle-East or else people like Russia, China or even the East-Roman Empire will start investing the region. So this is a critic of American isolationism too. Why does the US need such a gigantic army if it’s only to harass Greenland and Canada?
 
/The UK + France are simply not what they were before. France has very deep ties with Lebanon but it cannot even pressure İsrael enough to leave Lebanon alone. By the way: There is no Lebanese state anymore. Lebanon is increasingly turning into the West-Bank in terms of statehood etc. Basically: Everything north of Jordan is some sort of no-man’s Land where elements like ISIL and/or İranian revolutionary guards are doing whatever they want.
 
All I am saying is that I don’t think D. Trump know what he is doing right now. Today more than ever we need a US administration that knows what it is doing. There is no simple solution here:
 
I just read an article on the Iranian diaspora in the US. They too are entirely confused. It’s been 6 months since the war has started and yet D. Trump seems to have strengthened the regime instead of weakening it. So what’s going on here?
 
/ The butcher of Kosovo recently died in prison and the Serbian government has wowed to bury him with all the honors (despite all of his crimes against humanity). In the past, Greeks clearly intended to take most of our territories and basically annihilate most of us because they believed this was their right to do so. So that’s what I see when I see Israel. No one is telling them to stop so they think they can have it all while they are at it. As Thomas Jefferson once said sometimes “only power stops power”.
 
/ And Iran is not different either. But D. Trump is not that good. That’s what’s happening here (if you ask me)
 
Grandnudger:
 

“The epstein files is how it got started.”

 
- D. Trump was involved in several scandals and lawsuits even before he was elected. All of that seems to have worked as advertising rather than turning his voters away.
 
BrianSoddingBoru:
 
- Welcome back to the 60’s and 70’s

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

BrianSoddingBoru:
 

“-ALL engines run on fuel and always have done.
 
-If by ‘you’, you meant ‘everyone’, that’s just silly. Not everyone is involved in Western Asia and not everyone left Afghanistan 5 years ago. You were clearly talking about the Americans and should have said so.
 
-If every country involved in the Middle East and Western Asia were to leave that region alone, the best outcome would be a collapse of the world economy (the worst outcome doesn’t bear thinking about).
 
-I really didn’t need a lecture about the roots of the Ottoman Empire and I reject your analysis.
 
-If you think ethnic cleansing can’t happen because a particular geographic area is culturally diverse, I refer you to the Balkans, Nazi Germany, and Rwanda.
 
Boru”

 
- That’s what I am saying. Someone has to be in the Middle-East or else people like Russia, China or even the East-Roman Empire will start investing the region. So this is a critic of American isolationism too. Why does the US need such a gigantic army if it’s only to harass Greenland and Canada?
 
/The UK + France are simply not what they were before. France has very deep ties with Lebanon but it cannot even pressure İsrael enough to leave Lebanon alone. By the way: There is no Lebanese state anymore. Lebanon is increasingly turning into the West-Bank in terms of statehood etc. Basically: Everything north of Jordan is some sort of no-man’s Land where elements like ISIL and/or İranian revolutionary guards are doing whatever they want.
 
All I am saying is that I don’t think D. Trump know what he is doing right now. Today more than ever we need a US administration that knows what it is doing. There is no simple solution here:
 
I just read an article on the Iranian diaspora in the US. They too are entirely confused. It’s been 6 months since the war has started and yet D. Trump seems to have strengthened the regime instead of weakening it. So what’s going on here?
 
/ The butcher of Kosovo recently died in prison and the Serbian government has wowed to bury him with all the honors (despite all of his crimes against humanity). In the past, Greeks clearly intended to take most of our territories and basically annihilate most of us because they believed this was their right to do so. So that’s what I see when I see Israel. No one is telling them to stop so they think they can have it all while they are at it. As Thomas Jefferson once said sometimes “only power stops power”.
 
/ And Iran is not different either. But D. Trump is not that good. That’s what’s happening here (if you ask me)
 
Grandnudger:
 

“The epstein files is how it got started.”

 
- D. Trump was involved in several scandals and lawsuits even before he was elected. All of that seems to have worked as advertising rather than turning his voters away.
 
BrianSoddingBoru:
 
- s

Now you’re confusing me. Earlier, you said (essentially) that all foreign powers should pack up and get out of the Middle East and Western Asia. Now, you seem to want them there to keep out the Russians and the Chinese. This is probably a pointless request, but - could you be clearer?

Welcome back to the 60’s and 70’

I have no idea what you mean by that.

Boru

[The Grand Nudger]

Grandnudger:
 

“The epstein files is how it got started.”

 
- D. Trump was involved in several scandals and lawsuits even before he was elected. All of that seems to have worked as advertising rather than turning his voters away.

The mad king doesn't give a shit about his voters, whom he absolutely hates.  He didn't launch a distractionary war for their benefit.  He launched it for reasons of his own insecurities, as illogical as they may be in yall qaeda territory.

[Leonardo17]

BrianSoddingBoru:
 

“Now you’re confusing me. Earlier, you said (essentially) that all foreign powers should pack up and get out of the Middle East and Western Asia. Now, you seem to want them there to keep out the Russians and the Chinese. This is probably a pointless request, but - could you be clearer?”
 

- This is a fair question. After the Ottoman rule in the region and after the collapse of colonial empires in the 1960’s and 70’s there was something called “Arab nationalism” in the region. One sad example of this it the Algeria war between 1954 and 1962. Huge sacrifices were made and now Algeria is a nation that has been squeezed between an authoritarian regime and several Jihadi groups. I read in the end of the 2010’s that the last night-life locations and bars of Algiers had to close because of political Islamist pressures. Do not misunderstand me: Algiers was the location in which the French Orientalist painter Eugene Delacroix made his famous paintings like “The Women of Algiers” in the 1830’s.


 
So back to our subject: The whole region started to be split between authoritarian regimes (some of which collapsed in the Arab Spring in the 2010’s and later) and political Islamist forces. So despite all their oil exports etc. these societies could not really modernize and develop their economies and societies. The average Arab today is still completely uneducated and living in most cases with less than 300 dollars a month.
 
/So you can’t “just leave” a place like that. There has to be a balance between the interests of the states involved and the reality on the ground. / Which is a task that is very difficult to achieve but we must try it anyway.
 
You know: Sometimes the way a specie does things needs to change dramatically. There are instances in which a specie decides to evolve, or it simply goes extinct. Right now, our old ways of doing stuff are not working and the Middle-East is a good example of that. So we need to have new approaches in order the make everything work for all of us. That’s how I see it
 

“I have no idea what you mean by that.”

 
- I mean just like in the Vietnam War, most people in the US are opposed to Trump’s war with Iran. You can also compare this to the D.W. Bush Wars after 9/11.
 
GrandNudger:

“The mad king doesn't give a shit about his voters, whom he absolutely hates.  He didn't launch a distractionary war for their benefit.  He launched it for reasons of his own insecurities, as illogical as they may be in yall qaeda territory.”

 
- I can’t say anything for sure when it comes to D. Trump. But see this article:
 
https://www.yahoo.com/news/politics/arti...23775.html
 
Right now the US strategy is good (except for all those soldiers who are stranded in these aircraft carriers and other ships / If I was the commander in chief, I would look for ways to rotate those troops and/or increase the moral of troops who are stranded in these ships / like sending famous female artists to entertain them a little / if such a thing can be done on an aircraft carrier).
 
Chocking Iran is the right strategy here. Because the US is not in a position to dictate things to China. If you don’t do that 90% of Iranian oil will keep heading to China even if other Asian nations agree not to buy their stuff.
 
The only thing that I don’t like is the Using by the US of million dollar Patriots and Tomahawks against thousand dollar Iranian drones. That’s a huge weakness in this war. And I can’t keep myself from thing on how the US can spend that much money on that in time when people in the US cannot pay back their college loans and/or pay back their mortgages in order to be able to keep their homes.   
 
/So once again: There is a time in which a specie needs to evolve or else it will go extinct. We need to simply change the way we do things in this world.