If there's no God, nothing is right or wrong

[The Grand Nudger]

That may be all you’ve heard, but that’s not all that’s been explained to you.  For the umpteenth time, I’m not a subjectivist.  Im not the kind of person you prepared yourself to argue with.  I don’t believe the things that you’re saying…I’ve never said the things you’ve been attributing to me.  I’m an objectivist.  You may think that moral objectivity is not possible.  You might think it’s wrong.  He’ll, you may even be right…..and if so, it doesn’t really make sense to talk about what you’ve objectively done wrong in x.  If so, you cannot possibly have done anything objectively wrong, no matter how many gods there are or what their rules are.  If moral objectivity is not possible…then gods can’t get it to you either.

Then I simply have not understood your arguments. The problem may be that you use a lot of made up terms that become confusing. Not trying to slight you, I appreciate your willingness to engage in good faith, which is rare here. I legit have not been able to understand.

Can you tell me like you would tell a 6 year old: If I steal a car and no one ever finds out, what have I done wrong, and why should I care what others think?

All terms are “made up terms”……? You’ve stolen, that’s what you’ve done wrong. Whether or not someone catches you doesn’t change whether or not you’ve stolen. Plenty of thieves get away with it, regardless of whether or not there are gods. Whether or not you care that you’ve stolen, or whether or not you care that you’ve done something wrong…doesn’t change whether or not you’ve stolen, or whether or not you’ve done something wrong….again, regardless of whether or not there are gods.

[Kitan Etos]

All terms are “made up terms”……? You’ve stolen, that’s what you’ve done wrong. Whether or not someone catches you doesn’t change whether or not you’ve stolen. Plenty of thieves get away with it, regardless of whether or not there are gods.

People do bad things full well knowing the consequences of secular and/or divine law. Therefore, teaching them isn't the deterrent certain people think it is.

[The Grand Nudger]

Sure do, and we do bad things even when we subjectively or objectively believe them to be so. We even manage to fuck up non cognitive imperatives. We go yum seeking and get yuck instead, and sometimes we do t even have an accurate picture of what our yums and yucks are to begin.

No matter how we contextualize meta ethical realities it stands as a brute fact that we can fail by any standard. We’re truly amazing creatures in that regard.

[AngelThMan]

Then I simply have not understood your arguments. The problem may be that you use a lot of made up terms that become confusing. Not trying to slight you, I appreciate your willingness to engage in good faith, which is rare here. I legit have not been able to understand.

Can you tell me like you would tell a 6 year old: If I steal a car and no one ever finds out, what have I done wrong, and why should I care what others think?

All terms are “made up terms”……?  You’ve stolen, that’s what you’ve done wrong.  Whether or not someone catches you doesn’t change whether or not you’ve stolen.  Plenty of thieves get away with it, regardless of whether or not there are gods.  Whether or not you care that you’ve stolen, or whether or not you care that you’ve done something wrong…doesn’t change whether or not you’ve stolen, or whether or not you’ve done something wrong….again, regardless of whether or not there are gods.

Me role playing: I don't think stealing is wrong. I believe everything belongs to whoever can get their hands on it.

[The Architect Of Fate]

Then I simply have not understood your arguments. The problem may be that you use a lot of made up terms that become confusing. Not trying to slight you, I appreciate your willingness to engage in good faith, which is rare here. I legit have not been able to understand.

Can you tell me like you would tell a 6 year old: If I steal a car and no one ever finds out, what have I done wrong, and why should I care what others think?

All terms are “made up terms”……?  You’ve stolen, that’s what you’ve done wrong.  Whether or not someone catches you doesn’t change whether or not you’ve stolen.  Plenty of thieves get away with it, regardless of whether or not there are gods.  Whether or not you care that you’ve stolen, or whether or not you care that you’ve done something wrong…doesn’t change whether or not you’ve stolen, or whether or not you’ve done something wrong….again, regardless of whether or not there are gods.

His sticking point seems to be a lack of fear of universal punishment as" Universal Justice or Retribution against evildoers and a means of gaining conformity through fear," as if that defines morality or makes anyone good.

[The Grand Nudger]

Cool…you wouldn’t be the first person to believe something that wasn’t true? I’ve got a heart in my chest. You might be able to get your hands on it, but that won’t make it your heart…and I’m willing to bet a whole lot of bad shit is going to happen to one or both of us in the attempt.

You wanna talk about evil, lol? Nevermind your thieves morality. Even as a person with strong moral ideations I’m willing to go above and beyond moral warrant in a setup like that. I’d end up in jail, and rightly so. What a miserable world, eh?

[The Architect Of Fate]

Cool…you wouldn’t be the first person to believe something that wasn’t true?  I’ve got a heart in my chest.  You might be able to get your hands on it, but that won’t make it your heart…and I’m willing to bet a whole lot of bad shit is going to happen to one or both of us in the attempt.

It's a scientific fact, sociopaths tend to be miserable, paranoid and are rarely able to have healthy friendships. This guy likes bringing up Jimmy S, who lived an absolutely miserable existence. Few criminals are happy, well-adjusted people. That should tell you somthing.

[AngelThMan]

Cool…you wouldn’t be the first person to believe something that wasn’t true?  

Says who it's not true? Some people do believe stealing is fine.

Egoism and Nihilism (Philosophical Subsets)

Ethical Egoism: This philosophical subset argues that an action is good or right if it maximizes the individual's self-interest. To a strict ethical egoist, if stealing a valuable item directly benefits them and they can get away with it, the act is considered rational and good for them, independent of any societal rules.

Moral Nihilism and Error Theory: Moral nihilists believe that objective right and wrong do not exist at all. Within this subset, stealing is not viewed as "bad" because no actions are inherently bad.

Who are you to say they're wrong?

[The Architect Of Fate]

[The Grand Nudger]

What do you mean says who? This is a simple function of semantic truth content, a consequence of the law of identity. My heart…stolen by you…is…wait for it….my heart, stolen by you.

It won’t be, ofc. I’m going to feed you to my dog. I’ll get angry and that will override my better judgement. My insecure and suspicious ape brain will wonder who else thinks they can do this and how I might set a strong example to the contrary. What I -should- do is call the loony bin and get you help….but there’s a really good chance I won’t. A moral failure. A legal one too, at least in our society.

-and yeah, sure, egoism and nihilism are positions people can take. I think those people are wrong. Did I get you wrong…are you not a person looking for a path to objective morality? Are you, in reality, an egoist or a nihilist who doesn’t believe that objective morality is true or possible? If so…then it’s not true or possible with or without gods.